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Re: AR design

Tue, 11 July 2006 05:36

Dogthinkers

Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar

Tomasoid wrote on Tue, 11 July 2006 18:27

Hi!

Kotk wrote on Mon, 10 July 2006 22:35

Tomasoid wrote on Mon, 10 July 2006 21:17

Why? SQRT formula makes /13 is not very different from /10.

Whatever the difference is slight or big ... it seems bad investment where you put the points.
Lets say one invests points from divisor 12 into energy cheap. What it costs to keep up by researching more energy?
10/10 = 12/12 in the very same SQRT formula.
Energy 12 costs 13K with energy cheap and energy 10 costs 10K with energy normal... and so 30% more resources needed into energy to keep up. Confused

Makes sense.
Question: with cheap energy, would not we get initial Energy levels quicker? Can such cumulative effect of having Energy researched quicker cover these lost 3K you pointed to?

Answer is... Yes... It's only *after* this point that things start to consistently go against the cheap/12 variant. This area acutally appears to be stunningly well balanced...

5/10 = 6/12
Starting from base of 1/0/0/0/0/0 (marginally favours norm/10 variant, as compared to a 1/0/1/0/0/0 or higher start)
Total costs will be:
En5 normal = 860
En6 cheap = 730

So at those very early levels cheap + divisor 12 is somewhat better on paper...

Lets do a quick testbed... 15% PGR, lets see what happens to resources of norm/10 against cheap/12, starting 2400 with 1/0/0/0/0/0

	NORM 10		CHEAP 12		
2400	1	100	1	92	
2401	2	152	2	139	
2402	3	200	3	182	
2403	3	214	4	226	
2404	4	265	5	270	
2405	5	318	6	318	
2406	5	340	7	368	
2407	6	400	7	394	25%
2408	6	428	8	451	
2409	7	491	8	479	33%
2410	7	518	8	506	
2411	7	544	9	563	
2412	8	607	9	587	
2413	8	630	9	610	
2414	8	651	10	664	
2415	8	670	10	684
2416	9	728	10	701
2417	9	744	10	716
2418	9	759	10	730
2419	9	772	11	779
2420	9	783	11	790
2421	10	836	11	801
2425	10	871	12	871

Interesting facts... Norm/10 has near 10% resource advantage in first 3 years. From this point on it varies from year to year, with Norm/10 coming out with a very slight advantage. If you do nothing but sit tight doing research, 2425 is the year that norm10 takes a permanent lead, but it usually has an edge from about 2412 onwards. Don't forget these are 'sunk' resources - they only way you'd get an edge out of these little periods of advantage is if you expect a 'pause' in your research to coincide with one of the years that your preferred design was ahead.

We hit 25% pop at 2407, 33% at 2409. Those are crucial dates as other techs will be desired before those points, and also scouts and freighters. 2405 is an interesting year as both gain a tech level, and resources are dead even (nice spot of balance there...)

I guess I need to do a testbed that also gets con4 and builds some scouts, 6 freighters, and then 1 coloniser per year, holding hw pop at 25%... I'm not sure this'll make a lot of difference, as most of the spend there is happening when the testbed gave equal resources for the two. Cheap/12 could maybe research in 2405 for an extra year to have en7 in 2406 (norm/10 takes an extra year for this level) but in a real game that is touch-and-go from a scouting perspective, unless you were lucky enough to find a great green with starting scout. Assuming a desired 25% hold and 15% PGR, you need to start building freighters in 2407. If you haven't built scouts before then you are taking a big risk.

If they still came so close to even in such a testbed, it'd come down to some small preferences:
long term resources = norm/10
slightly higher en tech in early-mid game = cheap/12
like building scouts in first 3 years? = norm/10
dare to wait until 2406 to build scouts? = cheap/12

[Updated on: Tue, 11 July 2006 06:05]

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		AR design By: boneandrew on Mon, 09 June 2003 00:07
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Mon, 09 June 2003 03:09
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Tue, 10 June 2003 07:04
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Wed, 03 September 2003 22:10
		Re: AR design By: Sotek on Wed, 03 September 2003 23:33
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Thu, 04 September 2003 02:39
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Thu, 04 September 2003 19:17
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Fri, 05 September 2003 02:41
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Mon, 03 July 2006 10:43
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Mon, 03 July 2006 22:32
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Tue, 04 July 2006 06:05
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 04 July 2006 13:27
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Tue, 04 July 2006 14:13
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 04 July 2006 15:53
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Wed, 05 July 2006 04:34
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Wed, 05 July 2006 21:49
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Thu, 06 July 2006 02:34
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Thu, 06 July 2006 04:22
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Thu, 06 July 2006 08:08
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Thu, 06 July 2006 10:47
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Thu, 06 July 2006 12:49
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Thu, 06 July 2006 13:23
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Thu, 06 July 2006 17:30
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Thu, 06 July 2006 21:45
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Fri, 07 July 2006 05:08
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Fri, 07 July 2006 10:14
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Mon, 10 July 2006 07:26
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Mon, 10 July 2006 14:35
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Fri, 07 July 2006 09:28
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Mon, 10 July 2006 07:02
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Mon, 10 July 2006 09:42
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Mon, 10 July 2006 10:25
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Mon, 10 July 2006 14:03
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Mon, 10 July 2006 14:17
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Mon, 10 July 2006 15:35
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Tue, 11 July 2006 04:27
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Tue, 11 July 2006 05:36
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Tue, 11 July 2006 06:48
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 11 July 2006 16:50
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Tue, 11 July 2006 22:00
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 11 July 2006 18:33
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Wed, 12 July 2006 03:05
		Re: AR design By: Staz on Tue, 01 August 2006 14:22
		Re: AR design By: Marduk on Tue, 01 August 2006 16:50
		Re: AR design By: Staz on Tue, 01 August 2006 19:08
		Re: AR design By: Staz on Wed, 02 August 2006 07:49
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Wed, 02 August 2006 21:47
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Tue, 01 August 2006 11:59
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Tue, 01 August 2006 17:56
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Wed, 02 August 2006 04:39
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Wed, 02 August 2006 07:50
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Wed, 02 August 2006 14:09
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Thu, 03 August 2006 03:59
		Re: AR design By: joseph on Thu, 03 August 2006 07:09
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Thu, 03 August 2006 10:36
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Fri, 04 August 2006 10:26
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Sat, 05 August 2006 11:46
		Re: AR design By: crr65536 on Wed, 09 August 2006 11:55
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Sat, 12 August 2006 20:05
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Sun, 13 August 2006 01:04
		Re: AR design By: crr65536 on Mon, 14 August 2006 01:58
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Mon, 14 August 2006 12:19
		Re: AR design By: crr65536 on Mon, 14 August 2006 14:11
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Mon, 14 August 2006 15:45
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Tue, 15 August 2006 04:48
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 15 August 2006 08:51
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Tue, 15 August 2006 09:30
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 15 August 2006 11:59
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Tue, 15 August 2006 13:29
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 15 August 2006 19:51
		Re: AR design By: Tomasoid on Wed, 16 August 2006 07:46
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Wed, 16 August 2006 12:15
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Wed, 16 August 2006 15:58
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Wed, 02 August 2006 17:17
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Thu, 03 August 2006 00:23
		Re: AR design By: multilis on Thu, 03 August 2006 02:37
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Thu, 04 September 2003 07:27
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Thu, 04 September 2003 18:32
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Fri, 05 September 2003 02:12
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Fri, 05 September 2003 02:41
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Fri, 05 September 2003 02:46
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Fri, 05 September 2003 03:13
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Fri, 05 September 2003 08:19
		Re: AR design By: The Taubat on Fri, 05 September 2003 14:59
		Re: AR design By: freakyboy on Fri, 05 September 2003 22:16
		Re: AR design By: Steve on Wed, 10 September 2003 09:38
		Re: AR design By: iztok on Wed, 10 September 2003 09:55
		Re: AR design By: XyliGUN on Mon, 26 June 2006 20:31
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Mon, 26 June 2006 21:48
		Re: AR design By: XyliGUN on Tue, 27 June 2006 20:49
		Re: AR design By: Kotk on Tue, 27 June 2006 21:29
		Re: AR design By: Dogthinkers on Tue, 27 June 2006 22:18
		Re: AR design By: XyliGUN on Wed, 28 June 2006 03:41
		Re: AR design By: XyliGUN on Wed, 28 June 2006 03:59

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