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Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Some answers about common MT questions... (long)  () 1 Vote
Re: A note on trading MT parts Thu, 23 June 2005 03:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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LEit wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 17:17

And other cases where the battle orders were messed up and some wolves died, yet they still gained tech.


I've had loads of battles where I've died and don't recall ever getting tech. You would expect this most likely in duels, where you are not getting tech from other sources.
I suppose I'll have to try dieing even more often and see what happens !

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Re: A note on trading MT parts Thu, 23 June 2005 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
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The manual states you need to survive to gain tech. It could be wrong, but I've never gained tech after a fleet was *completely* destroyed.

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Re: A note on trading MT parts Thu, 23 June 2005 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
PricklyPea wrote on Thu, 23 June 2005 12:50

The manual states you need to survive to gain tech. It could be wrong, but I've never gained tech after a fleet was *completely* destroyed.

My experience confirms that. However there's possibility to get tech even if you aren't involved in battle: if your planet is at the same spot the battle happens. But in that case you are THE ONLY ONE able to get the tech ("tech trading?" thread in Academy).
BR, Iztok

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Re: A note on trading MT parts Thu, 23 June 2005 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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You are right, you do have to have ships that survive. They don't have to take part in the battle at all, even if you don't get a battle report you can still get tech (this can happen if two or more races fight but none pull your ships into the battle - I think this is how you can get tech if there is a battle in orbit that you didn't take place in). The ships that die can be your own ships (possible if they are given by an ally or the MT).


- LEit

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Sun, 31 July 2005 03:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
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mlaub wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 07:20

Hmmmm...I didn't see anyone post this. Fairly certain it is accurate.


M.T. Tech levels
                   

                           Minerals in kt
Tech Levels       5k     6.2k   7.4k    8.6k    9.8k 
<60               +6     +7     +8      +9      +10
60-69             +5     +6     +7      +8      +9
70-79             +4     +5     +6      +7      +8
80-89             +3     +4     +5      +6  	+7
90-99             +2     +3     +4      +5     	+6
100-109           +1     +2     +3      +4      +5
110-119            0     +1     +2      +3      +4
120-129            0      0     +1      +2      +3
130-139            0      0      0      +1      +2
140-149            0      0      0       0      +1
150+               0      0      0       0       0



-Matt


deleted some stupid comment about this already discussed numbers (edited)

Robert


[Updated on: Sun, 31 July 2005 05:40]




2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: How often does an MT appear ? Sun, 31 July 2005 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
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PricklyPea wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 17:43

OK below is table of probabilities for MT in early years. First column is year, second column is chance expressed as 1 in X chance of appearance. Empty column means NIL chance.

As you can see, the first volley of 3 MTs can occur in 48/49/50.

40	7
41	
42	7
43	
44	7
45	
46	7
47	
48	7
49	4
50	7
51	




This seems strange to me... I did 5 Testgames now and got 5 very different results (years of the MT from 40 to 150)

47/53/57/73/89/149
65/67/109
47/57/59/63/79/89/105/113/117/143
45/55/61/71/95/107/121/134/147
45/50/72/83/99/104/125/129/134/137/139/141

Especially the last game is interesting: 6 MTs in 16 turns!
I also remember a duel where we had 3MTs in 4 turns!

So I truly believe it is completly random... Confused

Robert



2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: How often does an MT appear ? Sun, 31 July 2005 07:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
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PricklyPea wrote on Wed, 01 June 2005 23:04

Disclaimer: based on what I remember of looking at the code.

(snip)
>Does it take into account your racial tech costs?

Yes.



Did some more testing on that with a race that had 3 cheap and 3 expensive. Result seems totally random, in one case from 10 Levels I got 6 times Electronics, rest distributed over other fields. From 2cheap and8 expensive to 6cheap and 3 expensive everything is possible and when I sum up everything it seems a _bit_ more likely that you gain an expensive level, but really minimal...

Also sometimes I got what I had much of anyway, sometimes I got what I had only few of - so you cant predict that the MT will fill up your low levels first, or the expensive ones...

This brings us to the next discussion:

When you see an MT coming towards you, and the score shows someone took it and gained techlevels, and you decide to push your research, do you go for the cheap levels or the expensive ones first???

Resourcewise one should research some lower expensive levels first IMO to make best of the MT levels... but well, maybe one should research the important field (weap) and hope for a push there???

Confused



2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: How often does an MT appear ? Mon, 01 August 2005 06:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
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>when I sum up everything it seems a _bit_ more likely that you gain an expensive level, but really minimal...

try this experiment. choose some fields cheap and others expensive and only research the expensive ones. Meet the MT and see what you get. Wink

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Re: How often does an MT appear ? Mon, 01 August 2005 06:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
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PricklyPea wrote on Mon, 01 August 2005 12:11

>when I sum up everything it seems a _bit_ more likely that you gain an expensive level, but really minimal...

try this experiment. choose some fields cheap and others expensive and only research the expensive ones. Meet the MT and see what you get. Wink


Did that (again), I had 3 cheap 3 expensive, got 10-12 in the expensive fields, and 3-4 in the cheap ones. MT gave both (5 cheap 5 expensive). 2 More MTs were similar...

What am I doing wrong? What should I see?

Robert



2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Sun, 05 March 2006 06:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wumpus

 
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overworked wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 21:05

(5) What do I get from the MT?
A given MT is giving out one of three things (and this appears to be set when the MT is generated - this is an exception noted below.)


I didn't notice this being explicitly stated yet so: It's definitely set when the MT is generated. It's actually one of the few things that's observable in the M file which definitely should not be Sad

Quote:

(d) The "Random" MT


Hmm, I've seen no (JRC4) evidence of this beastie; if Robert still has those files he was talking about, then maybe he could send them to me (M and XY, although I can live without the XY if need be)? (private message or, preferably, das.wumpus@gmail.com).



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 06 March 2006 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
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wumpus wrote on Sun, 05 March 2006 06:46

I didn't notice this being explicitly stated yet so: It's definitely set when the MT is generated. It's actually one of the few things that's observable in the M file which definitely should not be Sad



Actually, are you writing an M file filter that would 'blackout' this information?

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 15 March 2006 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wumpus

 
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PricklyPea wrote on Mon, 06 March 2006 14:03

Actually, are you writing an M file filter that would 'blackout' this information?



That's not done yet, but it's a trivial thing. Or rather: To fill the relevant bits of information with placeholder data (such as: all those 5 MTs you see are selling the bio-torpedo, honest! Smile) is easy.



Michael "Wumpus" Zinn
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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Thu, 16 March 2006 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shiver is currently offline shiver

 
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wumpus wrote on Sun, 05 March 2006 12:46


I didn't notice this being explicitly stated yet so: It's definitely set when the MT is generated. It's actually one of the few things that's observable in the M file which definitely should not be Sad



Is it considered cheating to check this? If not - how to check it? Smile

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 07 April 2006 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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I don't think that the MT Parts Detail thread has been linked in this thread:
http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&reveal =&rev=:496&mid=&rid=198&S=a5781b95bd541ee7ad 28db20c7b1967e&frm_id=4&th=70&start=0&count= 20&unread=&reply_count=&date=#msg_496

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 11 April 2006 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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I see early in this thread the assertion that if an item MT is giving an item you already have you will get nothing for trading. Someone else, not in the thread, has asserted that if you already have the item you will get tech, and so should treat that MT as a tech MT. Can I get a definitive ruling on this question?

[Updated on: Tue, 11 April 2006 16:33]

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 11 April 2006 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wumpus

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 22:32

I see early in this thread the assertion that if an item MT is giving an item you already have you will get nothing for trading. Someone else, not in the thread, has asserted that if you already have the item you will get tech, and so should treat that MT as a tech MT. Can I get a definitive ruling on this question?


=> The MT FAQ thread

But, generally speaking, you'll get another "toy" if you already have the one the MT is offering.

It can also, however, occur that you'll get nothing at all in this case (just a a hole in your pocket where minerals were! Razz), but as far as I know the exact circumstances are not completely understood - most likely stars! will try giving you other MT toys some number of times before giving up and giving you nothing at all.

As far as I know, it will *never* switch to giving you tech or ships if it initially wanted to give you a "toy".

EDIT: OK, I was obviously mistaken about this being stated 100% clearly in the MT thread, I was just looking now for linking purposes Sad There are also varying opinions in that thread about what happends when the toy-MT wants to give you something that you already have... so buh. I guess that means your no wiser now than you were before, since I make no claim to being any kind of paticular authority on this (I've never examined it closely myself, I was just going on memories). So sorry, not much help there *sigh* Neutral
It does seem fairly clear though that you can't *count* on it being a tech-MT. In your situation, I'd be inclined to send a 5000kT fleet to him and hope for the best Smile Oh, and report your results! Very Happy


[Updated on: Tue, 11 April 2006 17:07]




Michael "Wumpus" Zinn
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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 11 April 2006 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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wumpus wrote on Tue, 11 April 2006 22:59

As far as I know, it will *never* switch to giving you tech or ships if it initially wanted to give you a "toy".


In my very 1st game with/aganst ppl, I had an MT giving me tech when I already had the toy it carried. Cool

I had gotten the Hush-a-Bomb from a recent MT and my WM ally had been late to catch it. Then this second MT appears and gives me a sh*tload of tech, since I'm swimming in excess minerals and commit more than 7000kT to the trade.

So my tech-strapped WM ally quickly turns around his freighters and runs for it. Guess what he gets in exchange of his 6500kT of minerals: The Hush-a-Bomb. Razz

He very nearly declared war on me out of pure frustration. Not likely I'll ever forget. Very Happy

PS: that bomb was a game-breaker, of course. Wink



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 12 April 2006 00:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
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wumpus wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 08:59

As far as I know, it will *never* switch to giving you tech or ships if it initially wanted to give you a "toy".

I've got a counterexample to that.

I was playing in a duel recently when two MTs turned up on successive turns. Both of us got to both of them, and both of us got the MPS on the first one, tech on the second.

The thing was that we'd got to them in opposite orders, so they must have both been toy traders, that then both switched to tech when we already had the toy.

I still have all the turn files somewhere if you are interested in seeing for yourself.

The duel was over before I ever got to find out how useful a MPS was to an AR with RS.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 12 April 2006 00:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wumpus

 
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Madman wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 06:39

wumpus wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 08:59

As far as I know, it will *never* switch to giving you tech or ships if it initially wanted to give you a "toy".

I've got a counterexample to that.



Remarkable.. I remembered later last night where I had gotten the idea from in the first place, namely from when I was working out how to decode the MT "structure" in the HST file, and thus doing a lot of MT-meeting. Hmmmm Neutral "Curiouser and curiouser".

Quote:

I was playing in a duel recently when two MTs turned up on successive turns. Both of us got to both of them, and both of us got the MPS on the first one, tech on the second.

The thing was that we'd got to them in opposite orders, so they must have both been toy traders, that then both switched to tech when we already had the toy.

I still have all the turn files somewhere if you are interested in seeing for yourself.


Do you have the files for both players? .o.oO Either way, though, it'd be very useful to see, yes. I got Robert's files from the "random" MT mentioned in the main MT thread, but only had the one turn from them, so they were suggestive at best, but not terribly conclusive.

OfC if you had the HST files that'd be brilliant, but I imagine this was on autohost? Neutral



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 12 April 2006 02:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
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wumpus wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 16:59

Do you have the files for both players? .o.oO Either way, though, it'd be very useful to see, yes. I got Robert's files from the "random" MT mentioned in the main MT thread, but only had the one turn from them, so they were suggestive at best, but not terribly conclusive.

OfC if you had the HST files that'd be brilliant, but I imagine this was on autohost? Neutral

Nope it was a duel, so I was hosting. I have all the files for both sides and the host file. I'll see if I can create a zipfile of all the relevant turns small enough to PM (or PM me your email).

Perhaps I should go check both sets of turns first (we swapped passwords at the end of the game) to see if I haven't just made an idiot of myself.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 12 April 2006 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
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I think that two MTs in the current No Frills game both gave out the Alien miner (and hence people got tech from the second one if they already met the first).
Can someone else in the game confirm this is the case, or confirm that I'm confused ?

So those files may be available ...

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 12 April 2006 09:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
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I've just sent about half a megabyte of game files to Wumpus where two MTs had the same part and gave techs second, so hopefully that will give a definitive answer.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 14 April 2006 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madman is currently offline Madman

 
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Madman wrote on Thu, 13 April 2006 01:39

I've just sent about half a megabyte of game files to Wumpus where two MTs had the same part and gave techs second, so hopefully that will give a definitive answer.

Hmmm ... guess I choked him with all the data Laughing

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 14 April 2006 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wumpus

 
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Madman wrote on Wed, 12 April 2006 15:39

I've just sent about half a megabyte of game files to Wumpus where two MTs had the same part and gave techs second, so hopefully that will give a definitive answer.


Oh, I took it as a given that what you (and others) reported was true Smile I just wanted to see if the MTs listed in the file matched up with what I had seen so far, or whether there was anything unexpected.

But, no... the two MTs are indeed set to trade the MPS... and there is nothing that strikes me about this one to set it apart from Robert's "random MT" or any of the other "usual" ones I've seen. Looks like a renewed series of tests might be called for, but not sure when I'll get to that... I'll try and remember to store the data somewhere this time so that it can be re-analysed by others or should it later seem like some data that seems irrelevant now, actually maybe *is* important.

Hmmmmmm

I'm still sticking by my assertion that the you won't *always* get tech if you already have the toy an MT is trading... but maybe there are circumstances that aren't apparent yet where this *is* true, hmphm. If nothing else, Robert's data bears this out... *sigh* that MT really is 'M' ;P


[Updated on: Fri, 14 April 2006 10:25]




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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 17 April 2006 00:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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I traded with an MT this year that is giving an item I already have. I brought 9,800kT of minerals and received 7 tech levels, which was quite good since it brought me to a total tech total of 101. I expect three more players to hit item MTs giving items they already have in the next several years and will report back on what they receive.

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