Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Some answers about common MT questions... (long)  () 1 Vote
Re: How often does an MT appear ? Mon, 04 April 2005 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
donjon is currently offline donjon

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 808
Registered: November 2002
Location: Benque Viejo del Carmen, ...

Hiya Mazda et al.

Nope not the faintest idea...

However,
The earliest I have seen the MT appear is 2440 and the latest 2465.

It seems that the MT appears in volleys:
ie a group of them maximum size five... in a space of 20 years, followed by a Silence of maximum size ?? years.

I have never seen two MTs appear in the same year,
however, I have seen an MT decide to recross the universe in the same year as a new one comes on the scene.

regards,
donjon

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Mon, 04 April 2005 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
Hi!

donjon wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 12:50


The earliest I have seen the MT appear is 2440 and the latest 2465.



I remember seeing it a bit earlier, say, late 20s or early 30s, just as Bora on my HW started to pile up (with a decent mine settings) but was still halfway to the 5000kT mark. It happened in several all-AI games.

In a lot of solo testebeds with "Random events" allowed, it never showed its face before turn 50, though. Razz

As for the MT algorithm: no idea beyond basic randomness. Sad
C U!

{I stand corrected.}


[Updated on: Wed, 06 April 2005 15:37]




So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Mon, 04 April 2005 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 04 April 2005 12:36

As for the MT algorithm, nothing easier: random. Twisted Evil


We know that the MT appearance is random, however gaining tech from scrapping is also random, but we can still calculate the odds to a million decimal places if needed.
So more useful information, other than stating the obvious, is required please !


Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Wed, 13 April 2005 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1197
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Following MT.
If you want to prevent others trading with the MT by following it with the fleet, that fleet WILL NOT follow the MT if you target it with the right click on the blue diamond (objects in the same location) and selecting MT. To move the fleet in the same location as MT in next turn, you need to target that MT with a ship that's not in the same location, and target that ship with the "interception" fleet. OFC you can try to travel with the same speed and along the same path as MT goes, but if it changes speed/direction, your ships will not end in the same location as MT.

Just found that the hard way (lucky you, chaggara! Wink ), and testbeded it to be sure.
BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Thu, 12 May 2005 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
mlaub wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 01:20

Hmmmm...I didn't see anyone post this. Fairly certain it is accurate.


M.T. Tech levels
                   

                           Minerals in kt
Tech Levels       5k     6.2k   7.4k    8.6k    9.8k 
<60               +6     +7     +8      +9      +10
60-69             +5     +6     +7      +8      +9
70-79             +4     +5     +6      +7      +8
80-89             +3     +4     +5      +6  	+7
90-99             +2     +3     +4      +5     	+6
100-109           +1     +2     +3      +4      +5
110-119            0     +1     +2      +3      +4
120-129            0      0     +1      +2      +3
130-139            0      0      0      +1      +2
140-149            0      0      0       0      +1
150+               0      0      0       0       0



-Matt


Having performed some analysis, I can confirm the breakpoints in terms of tech levels before you meet the trader are: 108, 96, 84, 72 and 60.

I don't think the table above is entirely correct.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Thu, 12 May 2005 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
PricklyPear wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 15:58


Having performed some analysis, I can confirm the breakpoints in terms of tech levels before you meet the trader are: 108, 96, 84, 72 and 60.

I don't think the table above is entirely correct.


Entirely possible. That table was created around '98. It might have changed in the J patches, or there could be a random factor in there not accounted for...

Feel free to narrow it down, and submit it to the forum. Very Happy

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 13 May 2005 06:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
mlaub wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 22:24

Feel free to narrow it down, and submit it to the forum. Very Happy


What, and lose a valuable playing advantage? Twisted Evil

Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 13 May 2005 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA
PricklyPear wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 05:02

mlaub wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 22:24

Feel free to narrow it down, and submit it to the forum. Very Happy


What, and lose a valuable playing advantage? Twisted Evil


LOL. I wouldn't call it a "valuable playing advantage"... The chart isn't that far off, even if it was thrown together. At most it will cost you 1 tech level. Hardly a huge difference. Plus, it's nice to actually have some competition. At least that's my stance... Smile

-Matt





Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 13 May 2005 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
mlaub wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 12:49

LOL. I wouldn't call it a "valuable playing advantage"... The chart isn't that far off, even if it was thrown together. At most it will cost you 1 tech level. Hardly a huge difference. Plus, it's nice to actually have some competition. At least that's my stance... Smile



Cost is not so much in tech, but wasted minerals. But I'm still early days into research on this so I've still got to look at a few more things before I report Smile

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Fri, 13 May 2005 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
>I remember seeing it a bit earlier, say, late 20s or early 30s,

Maybe in an earlier version. In the version I have (JRC3/4?) it will not appear before year 40.

Also, the appearance is not entirely random! In fact, you can predict which year an MT is likely to appear. I've only just started looking into MT (it has just appeared in a game I'm playing Wink) but it seems there's a lot to be learned.


[Updated on: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:46]

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Sat, 14 May 2005 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
PricklyPear wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 05:45

>I remember seeing it a bit earlier, say, late 20s or early 30s,

Maybe in an earlier version. In the version I have (JRC3/4?) it will not appear before year 40.


Now you point it out, that must have been the case. I got the latest j in comparatively recent times.

Quote:


Also, the appearance is not entirely random! In fact, you can predict which year an MT is likely to appear.


Uh oh... It might not be entirely advisable to dispel the MT magic just like that. Shocked



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Sat, 14 May 2005 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
OK below is table of probabilities for MT in early years. First column is year, second column is chance expressed as 1 in X chance of appearance. Empty column means NIL chance.

As you can see, the first volley of 3 MTs can occur in 48/49/50.

40	7
41	
42	7
43	
44	7
45	
46	7
47	
48	7
49	4
50	7
51	

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Tue, 17 May 2005 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
Excellent work.
We did have 3 in a row in those very years in Plain Vanilla II.
Next MT appeared around 2469, IIRC.

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Wed, 01 June 2005 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
I've heard some people saying that MTs give resources not tech levels, which means if you have low tech, you get a lot of levels, and if you have high tech you don't get much. This idea seems to fit a lot of observed behaviour.

I have not tested this at all, but some obvious questions if some one wants to test this: Is the amount of resources fixed (depending on minerals given) or random? Does it take into account your racial tech costs? How about slow tech games?

It does apply them randomly, I'm not sure how it does that, perhaps giving 1000 resources at a time to a random tech till it's out? That seems like it would be a lot harder to figure out exactly.



- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: How often does an MT appear ? Wed, 01 June 2005 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
Disclaimer: based on what I remember of looking at the code.

>Is the amount of resources fixed (depending on minerals given)

No

>or random?

No

>Does it take into account your racial tech costs?

Yes.


[Updated on: Wed, 01 June 2005 17:05]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Thu, 02 June 2005 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
Commander

Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003
PricklyPea wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 23:58

I don't think the table above is entirely correct.

That table has only illustrative value for current patch.
Got 1 tech level for 5k minerals when all was almost researched (152 levels). Rolling Eyes

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Tue, 21 June 2005 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
I've been wondering if this would work:

Say you trade with the MT and get a Lifeboat (or other MT ships, but Lifeboats are cooler Wink ). Assume also you have two allies. Give that the Lifeboat has high tech items in pretty much every field (MCM, Nubian hull, Anti-matter torp, etc.), would it work to take turns having a "battle" with one ally while the other watches. It seems like this could give a large amount of "free" tech, especially if you get more than one ship. You'd also find it pretty easy to get most of the MT toys (except Genesis Device, Alien Miner, and Hush-a-Boom).

If this would work, it seems like it would make it easy to use the ship's items to do a lot of research for you, giving you more resources to build ships Twisted Evil .

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Tue, 21 June 2005 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
That will work, and even the owner of the MT ship being destroyed has a chance to get tech. However, the odds of getting MT parts from scrap or battle are very low (.5% per item to a max of 25 items per event - scrap or battle), and if you get tech, you can't get MT parts the same turn, so in practice it's even lower. There are faq's that detail all of that.


- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Tue, 21 June 2005 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
What I mean is that the person with the Lifeboat wins the battles, and the person watching gets the tech, in a similar vein as this StarsFaq article. With three Lifeboats, you could set it up Wolf-Lamb style so that each of the allies receives tech at one location, and have the MT-provided ships give a long-lasting bonus to your research.

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Wed, 22 June 2005 04:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1197
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
crr65536 wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 05:17

With three Lifeboats, you could set it up Wolf-Lamb style so that each of the allies receives tech at one location, and have the MT-provided ships give a long-lasting bonus to your research.


Looks like you don't understand correctly the tech transfer rules. To get the tech the "giving" ship must be destroyed, not just present.
BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Wed, 22 June 2005 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
Is the article in error then? Here's a quote from it:

Quote:

Whether your allie wins or losses the battle with your enemy; if your ship survives (and it usually does...low priority target). You get a 50% chance of getting tec. You do nothing but "BE THERE". Your allie , if he wins gets a 50% chance of getting tec, not nessacarily the same tec; but you get a chance at tec whether he wins or not , just by being there.


(spelling left as in the article, emphasis mine)

In the article, your ally is fighting a high-tech enemy ship, and whether he wins and gets tech or not, you always have a chance of getting tech.

In my proposed scenario, the ally (of the three-man alliance) who gets the lifeboats (or probes or scouts) plays the role of the "enemy". He receives no tech from the setup. Another ally plays the role of the "ally" in the article, by sending chaff-like ships to battle the Lifeboat, which is set to attack armed ships only. The third ally plays the role of "you" in the article, sending an unarmed ship (or an armed one with low priority, depending on what's needed to get it in the battle) to watch the battle. It is the third ally who receives tech/toys.

If I understand the article correctly, and it is not in error, then you could have the lifeboat constantly win the battle, and the third member of the alliance (the one just "watching") constantly receive tech. If you get 3 lifeboats (which as I understand it is likely if that's what the MT is giving out and you give it 9800kT of minerals), then you could give two to your allies and set it up so that each ally is on the receiving end at one location.

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Wed, 22 June 2005 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
Your quote does make sense, but only in the limited context of large battles with multiple numbers of ships.

For you to gain tech at a battle you a) have to survive and b) a ship that has the higher tech on it has to die.

If no high tech ships die then you won't get any tech.
You are correct in that you don't have to fire any shots, but your ship does have to appear in, and survive, the battle.

Note - the faq article does refer to a fleet of ships, not just single ships fighting. The (unstated) assumption is that with fleets of ships then at least one ship on either side will die.
Of course, this is not always the case !


[Updated on: Wed, 22 June 2005 11:59]

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Wed, 22 June 2005 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crr65536 is currently offline crr65536

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 180
Registered: June 2005
That makes sense that a high-tech ship must be destroyed. If I want to test this, however, is there an easier way than starting a test and waiting for an MT giving ships to come around?

I respect you all, and am pretty sure you are right - I just want to make sure, because if you could keep this ongoing it would be very valuable.

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Wed, 22 June 2005 12:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
mazda wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 11:55

For you to gain tech at a battle you a) have to survive

This is not correct, you can die and still gain tech, you can even not take part in the battle and gain tech, you just need to be at the same location. I found out about this when I had a wolf/lamb setup with multiple wolves, and had one of them opt out of the battle by chaning battle orders, they didn't take part in the battle, but they did gain tech. And other cases where the battle orders were messed up and some wolves died, yet they still gained tech.
mazda wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 11:55

and b) a ship that has the higher tech on it has to die.

This is correct.



- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: A note on trading MT parts Wed, 22 June 2005 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
If you just want to try tech levels, make a game with a CA with prop expensive @3, and some other non-CA race. The CA can build some wolves, transfer to the other race, and feed them DNA scanners. If you want to test it backward (having the high tech ship kill another one) make a WM and use yak phasors, it can kill observers.


- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: What should be added to the Stars! - Must Know section
Next Topic: Tricks of the Trade (long)
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Mar 02 04:52:49 EST 2024