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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 07 April 2009 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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PaulCr wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 15:48

The MT completes any field it gives you, ie if you have put 10k into getting W16 and it gives you W16 you will no longer have those resources being contributed to getting W17.

Interesting! And not exactly how it looks from inside the game. Sherlock

What about the MT giving "partial" techlevels? In my most recent meeting I was quite far from Weap14, it gave me Weap15 and I found myself just a short hop from Weap16. Shocked

I also was halfway to Bio11. It gave me Bio11 and then I was less than halfway to Bio12. Confused

(I still have the backup files, just in case)



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 07 April 2009 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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I've just done an initial test run giving 12000kt with tech levels from 0 to 155 spread evenly and got a fairly surprising result.

Levels  Given
  0-59  10
 60-71  9
 72-83  8
 84-95  7
 96-107 2
108+    1


I've done a further test and it doesn't matter how the tech levels are distributed, you can have 26-26-26-0-0-0 or 13-13-13-13-13-13 and you get the same number of levels.

I ran a further few meetings adding some preexisting research to each level and it turns out that it does actually contribute to the next level, I have tested before and the level I got tech in showed at 0 which is why I was sure it was being cleared but I think I remember reading somewhere that existing research can swap fields when gaining a level though a method other than straight research if it causes a switch to the primary research field and maybe that happen the last time I looked in the file data.


[Updated on: Tue, 07 April 2009 16:51]

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 07 April 2009 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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PaulCr wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 22:22

I've just done an initial test run giving 12000kt with tech levels from 0 to 155 spread evenly and got a fairly surprising result.

Levels  Given
  0-59  10
 60-71  9
 72-83  8
 84-95  7
 96-107 2
108+    1


I've done a further test and it doesn't matter how the tech levels are distributed, you can have 26-26-26-0-0-0 or 13-13-13-13-13-13 and you get the same number of levels.

An extremely interesting result, confirming some old theories. Cool


Quote:

I ran a further few meetings adding some preexisting research to each level and it turns out that it does actually contribute to the next level,

So, is the MT giving out resources and hoping that you'll reach the intended techlevels, or is it behaving like regular techtrades where the full cost of a tech is given regardless of your research coeffs and what amount of partial research is already done? Sherlock


Quote:

I have tested before and the level I got tech in showed at 0 which is why I was sure it was being cleared but I think I remember reading somewhere that existing research can swap fields when gaining a level though a method other than straight research if it causes a switch to the primary research field and maybe that happen the last time I looked in the file data.

It should be easy to test without having "switch" orders in your Research orders. Rolling Eyes



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 07 April 2009 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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Current  
Levels   5000kt  6200kt  7400kt  8600kt 9800kt
 0-59      6       7       8       9     10
60-71      5       6       7       8      9
72-83      4       5       6       7      8
84-95      3       4       5       6      7
96-107     2       2       2       2      2
108+       1       1       1       1      1


6200kt & 7400kt still need checking but it seems pretty clear that those values are almost certainly going to be correct.

Etxra minerals above 5000kt are ignored if you have more than 96 existing tech levels

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 07 April 2009 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 22:04

PaulCr wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 22:22


I ran a further few meetings adding some preexisting research to each level and it turns out that it does actually contribute to the next level,

So, is the MT giving out resources and hoping that you'll reach the intended techlevels, or is it behaving like regular techtrades where the full cost of a tech is given regardless of your research coeffs and what amount of partial research is already done? Sherlock


It is modifying the level numbers directly, the MT is too evolved to even contemplate what resources are so if you've researched anything already it still contributes to the next level, as far as I am aware tech trades do zero the existing resources put into that field when you gain a level so you lose the resources contributed already.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 07 April 2009 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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PaulCr wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 23:32

It is modifying the level numbers directly, the MT is too evolved to even contemplate what resources are so if you've researched anything already it still contributes to the next level,

Amazing. Cool

It still doesn't explain how can I be nearer (and in at least one case *much* nearer) the next techlevel than I was from the one the MT gave me. Confused


Quote:

as far as I am aware tech trades do zero the existing resources put into that field when you gain a level so you lose the resources contributed already.

In my experience all kinds of techtrades give the exact number of res needed to reach a techlevel, with any excess being put towards the next, and no zeroing whatsoever (switching tech as per Research Orders is a different thing). Perhaps all they do is modify the level numbers as the MT does, despite their messages mentioning resources? Sherlock


[Updated on: Tue, 07 April 2009 20:01]




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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 20 April 2009 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 08 April 2009 09:49

PaulCr wrote on Tue, 07 April 2009 23:32

It is modifying the level numbers directly, the MT is too evolved to even contemplate what resources are so if you've researched anything already it still contributes to the next level,

Amazing. Cool

It still doesn't explain how can I be nearer (and in at least one case *much* nearer) the next techlevel than I was from the one the MT gave me. Confused


I think what he was talking about is that spare resources in other fields can switch.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 20 April 2009 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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Spare resources can definitely seem to switch, in a test bed I've received the 8 fields I expected to get from the MT from the message it gave but the got an extra 1 or 2 on top of that which can only be explained by excess resources being switched between levels, I'm going to do a proper test when I have time to see exactly what happen by giving every field 1 extra resource which won't be enough to actually increase any levels but I will be able to look at what happen after the MT gives it's levels to check the results and deduce exactly how they get moved.

The results should still have a total of 6 excess resources but they'll probably be in the final field with 0 in the others unless a field didn't gain any tech but I also have a sneaking suspicion that there may be an issue with the resource switching which stops the original actually being zeroed so it could end up something like 135246 since in the testbed where I got 2 extra levels I didn't think I would have had enough excess resources to have got both and the other levels I got from the MT also seemed closer to the next than they should have been.

The original test I made did have all excess resources set to 0 and they remained at 0 after meeting the MT so the MT couldn't have been giving partial levels.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 20 April 2009 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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I hope you manage to find out all the details on this. Thumbsup 2 As with popgrowth and minerals, this is an area which the Stars! client seems to obfuscate but direct examination of m-file contents should unravel. Sherlock


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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 20 April 2009 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 20 April 2009 12:28

I hope you manage to find out all the details on this. Thumbsup 2 As with popgrowth and minerals, this is an area which the Stars! client seems to obfuscate but direct examination of m-file contents should unravel. Sherlock


Just done a very quick test, only 2 runs, all techs set to 0 with 1 resource to Energy, 2 to Weapons etc up to 6 for Bio. Next research field was set to lowest with current field being Prop.

First run got Bio,Bio,Con,En,Weapons all with message that they would continue in Prop, last level was Prop with message that it would continue in Elec. Final resource numbers where 1,2,0,4,8,6 meaning the 3 resources that were in Prop were added to the 5 already in Elec.

Second run got Prop continue in Energy, Energy, Elec, Bio, Bio, Prop all with continue in Weapons. Final resource numbers were 0,6,0,4,5,6 meaning the 3 resources in Prop go transferred to the 1 in energy to make 4, the in Energy then got transferred to the 2 in Weapons to make 6.

It seems pretty clear that any excess resources in a field you are currently researching get transferred to the new field when it is changed, if it changes again then they get transferred to a new field. Presumably he same things happens if you get a level in whatever you are currently researching from battle and switch to a new level.

I'll have to do some test with more complex scenarios since I'm still convinced the previous test I did could not have had enough resources hanging around to complete 2 fields. I did complete 2 levels in different field the year I reached the MT through normal research so that might cause some sort of different result but I can't think how at the moment.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Tue, 21 April 2009 03:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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Switching research is nasty. Twisted Evil


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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 24 April 2009 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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If you have a MT and a freighter not absorbed in the same location.
How do you get another armed ship to target the MT instead of the freighter? Is there a way to switch? I need to target the MT to scare him into another direction.



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 24 April 2009 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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There is a blue diamond thingy for changing choosing which object at a location you want to target. There is nothing you can do though to convince the MT to change direction as it is completely random when it does so.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 24 April 2009 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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PaulCr wrote on Sat, 25 April 2009 00:40

There is a blue diamond thingy for changing choosing which object at a location you want to target.

IIRC that doesn't work with the MT ...

mch

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 24 April 2009 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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I've just tried it and you can use it to target the MT as a WP1 from elsewhere even if there is another ship there which is what he was asking, targeting it with the fleet that is already there though will not work, it will let you target it but it won't follow the MT which I assume is what you meant, if say you brought 2 separate fleets to the MT and merged them then the merge would have occurred after the MT checked whether they had 5000kt so you might want to follow it with the newly merged fleet, to do so you have to set a ship from elsewhere to target it and then target that with the freighters.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Sat, 25 April 2009 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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IIRC you can target the MT as much as you want for WP1 or higher, the problem occurs when you want to follow the MT when you're already at the same location by selecting it as WP0 - this doesn't work.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Sat, 25 April 2009 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Then, assuming the MT is going at W10 or less, the only option available is to target the MT with the second fleet and to send the first fleet to meet it with a merge order.

However, since the MT would consider both fleet to be <5000kt and that merging would happen after the MT check for fleet, this solution would mean that the first fleet will need to follow the MT for two years.

Since MTs usually don't travel very slow on the grid, the only real solution is to always make sure you are really ready the year before you should intercept the MT. That way you don't have to play "catch me up". Wink



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Sat, 25 April 2009 06:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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PaulCr wrote on Sat, 25 April 2009 01:29

I've just tried it and you can use it to target the MT as a WP1 from elsewhere even if there is another ship there which is what he was asking, targeting it with the fleet that is already there though will not work, it will let you target it but it won't follow the MT which I assume is what you meant, ...

That's what I meant, using the blue diamond you can't follow the MT with a fleet that is already at the same location ... (you'll have to do that with the other method as described) But reading the original post again that was not the question, my apologies for giving a confusing answer.

mch

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 30 October 2009 06:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bukane is currently offline Bukane

 
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Quick question:

Can a race meet with two different MT's in the same turn and get tech/items twice? Maybe answered here but could't find the answer...

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Fri, 30 October 2009 06:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Bukane wrote on Fri, 30 October 2009 11:10

Quick question:

Can a race meet with two different MT's in the same turn and get tech/items twice?


Yes.

Quote:

Maybe answered here but could't find the answer...


Yes. Wink

mch

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Re: How often does an MT appear ? Sun, 09 January 2011 02:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Robert wrote on Sun, 31 July 2005 07:23


... I did 5 Testgames now and got 5 very different results (years of the MT from 40 to 150)

47/53/57/73/89/149
65/67/109
47/57/59/63/79/89/105/113/117/143
45/55/61/71/95/107/121/134/147
45/50/72/83/99/104/125/129/134/137/139/141

Especially the last game is interesting: 6 MTs in 16 turns!
I also remember a duel where we had 3MTs in 4 turns!

So I truly believe it is completly random... Confused



So, in the first 4 of those test games, the MT appeared 27 times in odd numbered years and once in an even numbered year.
In the fifth test game, it was 8 times on odd years and 4 times on even years.

Ok, anything is possible with random numbers, but seriously, that seems very far from random. It could be semi-random but with auto-correlation.

That seems unlikely just from a programming perspective though. The simplest rules would have been x% chance per year after 2440, subject to a maximum of N traders on the board at any time.

But Robert's results are still very far from the center of a binomial distribution. If you flip a coin 40 times and only get 5 tails ... it can happen, but it's not very probable.

Does anyone have better information on this? It seems to me that stats could be generated from the "specified tech level battlesim generator". That program meets a *lot* of M.T.s.

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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Sun, 09 January 2011 05:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Well... As far as randomization goes... Computers cannot truly generate random numbers. If left to their normal number generation, computers will constantly defy probability by generating numbers which are very close to each others in pattern.

Since most "new" games nowadays still have this kind of problem, I seriously doubt that a program made for Windows 3.11 had a fallback solution for it either.



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 07 February 2011 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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Random numbers are not a computer problem. The computer only does what the programmer tells it to do. This includes programs as far back as the Win 3.11 days.

I did a quick routine using Python, and generated some random MT years for 5 potential games:

40 67 70 87 92 94 98 99 104 105 116 126 128 134 138 139 150

44 47 57 61 67 69 76 100 107 109 113 117 118 119 123 128

50 53 56 57 59 60 70 74 78 80 81 87 89 93 116 117 124 129 130

50 58 59 61 68 79 82 86 95 102 107 110 113 121 133 140 141

45 51 53 55 58 64 73 81 82 86 87 98 106 109 110 119 121 130 132 136 145

That's random enough to be suitable for a game, and this routine could easily be adjusted to come up with the desired results before using it in the actual game program.

I can easily modify this to come up with more or less MT's, even change the routine to increase the frequency for certain years, whatever I want the results to be.



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 07 February 2011 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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It all depends of what kind of routine you used. The problem of random generators in computers is well known now but it was very less so back then.

The problem with the random generators are not really that they are not random... It is rather that they are prone to do long streaks of same numbers in a row. This particularly shows in games like Civilization where the fighting routine is clearly broken as very very outdated units end up winning reliably against vastly superior modern units simply because the modern unit never had a chance to land a single blow. Having this kind of behavior is to be expected sometimes... To have it at least 10 times in every game is broken.



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Re: Some answers about common MT questions... (long) Mon, 07 February 2011 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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As Eagle of Fire says, computers have a problem with generating truly random numbers, so some quasi-random method is used. IIRC modern games use the computer clock to generate a seed number n where 0 <= n < 1 by taking the fractional part of the time in seconds when the game is started on the PC, and then use some quasi-randomization algorithm from there. The question then is how random that algorithm is...

In some games a new seed from the computer clock is used every time a new random number is needed, but that does not work if there are situations where several random numbers are needed with the same number of clock cycles between them every time that situation occurs, as I think is the case in some situations in the battle engine, but using a new seed from the computer clock each time a new turn is generated and then using a quasi-randomization algorithm from there should make the occurrence of the MT effectively random. That might not be the method used in Stars!, though, as there were far fewer CPU clock cycles per second when Stars! was developed than there are now, and asking the computer for the time might not have yielded as many decimals in the seconds back then either.



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