Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » LRTs
| LRTs |
Thu, 05 December 2002 13:59  |
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Here's a run down of the LRTs and my personal thoughts on each...
IFE - you get the fuel mizer, a spanky engine and almost essential for a QS race. I think IT and JOAT are probably the only races that can get away with NOT selecting this, HE can too if they use the mini colony hull with a cargo pod to transport people and minerals. My advice : take it if you can get it.
TT - 30% max terraform. It's VERY costly and requires the much unused bio tech. SD and CA should look at taking this, AR too. For everyone else it's probably not worth the cost.
ARM - popular amongst AR, useful if your hab range is tiny. Probably not worth it for most races.
IS - very handy for AR, almost essential. Most races would find the ultra station handy as well. I think this is a good pick for an IT race since it will allow you to start building transports sooner (space dock).
GR - gives higher research contribution for free. however if you have some tech set to expensive (which i figure most everyone does have at least 1) it's almost wasting the additional bonus.
UR - expensive with little gain. Not found any real use for it yet.
MA - useless, totally useless. Sorry.
NRSE - frees up race points and even better than that it lets you get warp 10 engines sooner. Handy indeed.
CE - not a good idea. Cheap engines, warp 6 restriction (well... one in 10 chance) I think IT and SD can pull this off, no-one else I don't think.
ORBM - VERY VERY handy if you dont plan on orbital mining. Frees up more points and even better it increases max pop by 10% - or in other words it gives you 10% better factories and 10% better mines. Bad idea if you're AR.
NAS - I like this one. Doubles scanning range, good points return. Ok you lose pen scans which sucks but you can live without them, you can also get pen scans from the MT and if you're SS, JOAT, or PP you still keep some pen scanning.
LSP - killer. It's slows your start tragically. Good race point return, but not worth it.
BET - ok makes things cheaper quicker. If you want omega torps, nubs or AMPs - then don't take it. SERIOUSLY don't.
RS - wonderful this one. Beamer vs Beamer and RS does wonders. Cruisers with a couple of sheilds become very deadly. Pick this and don't put armour on your ships. You get almost the same level of survivability, but the ships are lighter and quicker. IS ships loaded with sheilds and jammer 50s with RS can be a real pain in the ass, missiles don't hit and the sheilds regenerate somewhat from beam hits. Worrying. I had major problems with an IS race doing this.
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| Re: LRTs |
Thu, 05 December 2002 14:50  |
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 Apelord |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 99
Registered: November 2002 | |
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The 70% terraform cost is major. AR's can ramp much faster with this, every race can benefit however a CA w/TT starts with +-7 terraforming. Your hab for that race is 7 clicks wider than shown in the race wizard...
RS- Required for late game play. Don't leave home without it.
ARM- Gives you two things: Gateable midget miners (at con 15) and at around con 21, more cost effective remote miners. Very expensive though. Best to learn to live without it.
GR- Jump games it works, in regular multiplayer games however it will kill you.
IFE/NRSE combo- Pretty much a standard. Not a good idea to take inconcert w/cheap engines however. IFE gets you the fuel mizer which is really necessary for early expansion, NRSE gets you warp 10 at prop 11 meaning you can take prop to level 12 (overthruster if needed) and then stop research. Highly effective strategy.
NAS- Must for JOAT and SS. PP's not a bad idea. REALLY good for an IS race to take (tachyons + NAS make SS cloaking pretty useless).
LSP- Depends. Bad for early ramp, but in games without early contact you can easily make up the deficit so it isn't a bad point mine. Really hurts for non-ACCBBS starts though. JOATs can easily take this due to their larger planet size.
ISB- Only AR's (makes it MUCH easier to sustain growth by having docks and ultra's as intermediate steps). Space docks are handy, but a few SFX fill the same purpose, Ultra Stations (like all space stations) aren't going to save your butt. Better to spend the resources and mins on ships...
CE- Very handy for making those cheap hordes...WM's w/CE can fill the skies. Really good for blitz games or games where you get multiple turn jumps. Packed games w/lots of planet hopping favor this as well.
OBRM- I use it, but you can get screwed. Live everywhere races it's a no-brainer, but narrow hab races can get bad starts and if you can't remote mine you've lost.
UR/MA/BET ugghh
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| Re: LRTs |
Thu, 05 December 2002 19:10 |
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| Mangar |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2002
Location: Earth - Europe - Germany ... | |
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ARM - AR without it is absolutely playable. The biggest advantage is in non accbs games. The two starting miners can make a big difference.
OBRM - If I donīt play AR I always check this one. Usually it is pretty easy to trade some miners.
ISB - The Space Dock is a nice refuel-center for faster colonization.
TT - Personally I only use it for cheap terraforming. Might be also handy in late-game, but usually it takes too long to get to high bio levels.
RS - Depends on your style. With a lot of beamers it is great. With Missile ships as primary design it is not so good.
Just my thoughts
{mod edit: fixed the ZZZ}
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2007 06:13] by Moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Sat, 07 December 2002 10:35 |
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PP can play without ARM without too much difficulty. It's just very handy. It's like one of the other PRT's having higher than 10kt per 10 mines set for the mining rate. 12kt from 10 mines is very nice and comes in handy - but you can live without it.
TT is wonderful, expensive but wonderful. Any race that plans to do any research past tech 7 in bio tech should take this, but then again it's VERY expensive and not everyone researches bio tech. A low hab high growth IS race might be well taking this since using breeder fleets they can colonise anything and still have a growing population (orbital spill over). Does come in handy as Apelord pointed out - but the saved points allows other options to become available. (I still take it unless I've got bi-immunity).
RS is always handy. Even using missile ships because with RS your susceptability to the double damage of cap missiles is reduced.
MA is always useless. It's more cost effective for an AR race to build miners than alchemy.
I nearly always take NAS. Unless I'm PP because it's not worth it. WM and PP are the only races I refuse to take NAS - wm because of no minefield protection and PP because it's not worth it.
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| Re: LRTs |
Sun, 08 December 2002 20:09 |
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Miners d cost less R/Minerals
However, MA doesn't use minerals, thats the whole point of it, just minerals out. I did say that, and I still believe, 90% of the time its silly.
{mod edit: fixed the ZZZ}
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2007 06:14] by Moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Mon, 09 December 2002 13:40 |
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Ahhh ok - MA doesn't cost minerals. But the resource input is too much compared to the output.
{mod edit: fixed the ZZZ}
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2007 06:17] by Moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Wed, 11 December 2002 15:12 |
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| johng316 |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002
Location: Indiana, USA | |
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I know most everyone here hates BET. I hate it.
However, it can be very, very fun if everyone in the game is required to take BET. It introduces a whole new, fresh set of decisions to the game. Do I build now expensive, or do I do the research?
BET required is especially fun when combined with small universes where early conflict is common and when you also require weapons tech expensive.
Try this sometime when you want to host an unusual game. It's a hoot!
As for the other LRTs, I have general views which vary greatly depending on game parameters and victory conditions. Generally, I like ISB, IFE, NRSE, OBRM. Generally, I hate BET, CE, GR, and MA. ARM comes or goes depending on game parameters and race design, but I generally prefer colonist mining.
John G
[Updated on: Wed, 11 December 2002 15:19]
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| Re: LRTs |
Thu, 12 December 2002 14:05 |
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It takes alot of bashing - quite fairly too. But consider an SD race. Your enemy is constricted to warp 6 in your space max speed, same as those cheap engines. And it's only 10% chance of not engaging. If you are heavily aggressive then CE works fine. If you're defensive and IT it works. If you're defensive and SD or IS it works. If you're anyone else - forget it.
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| Re: LRTs |
Fri, 13 December 2002 03:13 |
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Try not to scrap ships ever. If you NEED that design slot back then try selling the ships you don't need. An SD minelayer can fetch a VERY good price from say a warmonger.
Question: a mini-mine layer hull lays 2x as many mines as usual. Does this still apply when the ship is given to another race? It should do since the trait isn't PRT specific, only hull specific.
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| Re: LRTs |
Fri, 13 December 2002 10:38 |
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| FurFuznel |
 | |
Messages: 437
Registered: November 2002
Location: New Brunswick, Canada | |
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| freakyboy wrote on Fri, 13 December 2002 03:13 |
Question: a mini-mine layer hull lays 2x as many mines as usual. Does this still apply when the ship is given to another race? It should do since the trait isn't PRT specific, only hull specific.
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I am not quite positive about this, but I think that they lose that ability when they are transferred. The following is what is said about this in the Stars! Strategy Guide:
| Quote: |
Space Demolition races can also trade mines, (three varieties, each in increasing size). They could also put those mines on a Super Minelayer hull for added minelaying ability. Sadly, when the ships are transferred, they lose their ability to lay mines the year of arrival, and also lose the ability to allow mine field detonation. However, for another race that can only build a Minelayer 50, a Heavy Dispenser 200 would be a great benefit. It may be difficult to tempt a Space Demolitionist in turn though, since this race is not lacking anything in specific.
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I know that this does not answer your question but it was the best I could find in my archives this morning.
FurFuznel
(aka Shadallark)
Shadallark <==> FurFuznel
Mental anguish is for those who choose to think - FurFuznel
running Mac OS X 10.6.7
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| Re: LRTs |
Fri, 13 December 2002 22:49 |
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I h mine layer looses the SD ability to lay mine the same year it travels
it has to arive at a location THEN lay mines...
Aragh!Report message to a moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Sat, 14 December 2002 01:11 |
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| zoid |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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My own humble thoughts;
GENERALIZED RESEARCH:
Seems to me lots of people like TT, and not many like GR. Huh? 
The advantages of GR, obvious. Get a few extra race points, and more importantly, get a 125% return on research allocations. The obvious disadvantage is that you can't accelerate towards any one certain tech as fast, but more troubling to me personally is that around BIO tech 12, research in Bio becomes pointless. Now 15% of that 125% return is being wasted in biotech. WASTED IN BIOTECH - unless you also have the TT LRT.
Seems to me the selection of GR along with TT not only mitigates the cost of TT (very slightly, granted) but more importantly, you can keep improving your BIO tech without actually putting anything into it, thus the extra research points are still serving a purpose. You're still getting use out of ALL the extra 25% gained thru this LRT, and it's helping something you don't really WANT to dedicate research to anyway. FIVE somethings you don't want to dedicate research to at any given moment, in fact. That offsets the "not researching something you want really fast" fast enough angle, because no matter how badly you want nubians, omegas, warp 10 capability, etc, you CAN'T ignore the other things long anyways. While you're doing your reluctant research in propulsion to get warp 10 for the new BB hull you're designing, you're still getting a free 15% into both construction and weapons for those omega nubes you want so badly. The other guy without GR, well, he doesn't get anything extra, and when he stops researching one thing, it's a REAL halt.
I don't always take GR, but I think it's a good LRT, and a natural partner for Total Terraforming. It's a tossup as to whether it's an advantage or a disadvantage, and the few extra points you get for taking it doesn't hurt.
NO RAM SCOOP ENGINES:
The warp 10 engine you get at tech 11 is nice for level 11, and not so nice at level 16, if memory serves me correctly. I remember it being a huge and expensive component, and when you're putting 4 on a BB it adds up pretty quick. Better to use the galaxy mizer scoop (if you have it, and with this LRT you don't). Still, not so bad an LRT. Lots of race points gained, and IFE eases the pain quite a bit. I always consider NRSE.
IFE, TT, ARM, IS: Who doesn't want them? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Of course, want in one hand, **** in the other and see which hand is full first. We all want more than we can have, and in the end we select one or two at the most so that we don't go into yr 2450 with only a collective 250,000 population to our species.
ULTIMATE RECYCLING:
Another one I like but don't always take. If you think you're going to go thru lots of various ship designs, it's a good thing. Makes the scrapping of ships a LOT less painful, and I disagree that you should NEVER scrap ships. Whose going to buy that hoard of old tech 6ish destroyers that are nothing but expensive fodder that slow your fleet down or gobble up the fuel? Scrap them with UR, and it's almost as good as having never built them in the first place, not only regaining 90% of the minerals, but most of the resources used as well (is it 75%?). Knowing that, it hurts less to build early fleets in the first place. I think UR is VERY nice, but like the IFE, TT, ARM, and IS, you simply can't have everything.
CE, LSP, BET:
Never never never, especially...well, especially all of them. I like my ships to go where I tell them WHEN I tell them at the fastest speed possible. LSP is like chopping off one of your legs before a footrace, and BET? Well, I can't wait for those certain critical techs so I can use them; the last thing I want to do is wait longer or pay more to incorporate them into my fleet.
ONLY BASIC REMOTE MINING:
I tend to design races with low habitat requirements so I can colonize as many of the planets as possible, so this one is practically standard fare for The Zoid. I'd rather colonize a planet, mine AND research on it, rather than diplomatic squabbling and cajoling with someone else over whether it's
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[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2003 21:23] by Moderator
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
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| Re: LRTs |
Sat, 14 December 2002 08:23 |
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NRSE gives you plenty of points - always worth considering.
ORBM - always worth considering anyway (unless AR)
GR - Generally good (generally? gettit?) but then I'm the kind of play who picks 2 or 3 cheap techs and ONLY researches those. Then trade for the remaining tech or just gain tech from war. usually weapons and construction are the ones most people pick - as such it could be a good idea to pick say propulsion and electronics... that way you can trade effectively - your ships can spread further than anyone and you have the scanners to find more people - just an idea bu there u go.
NAS - costs points for PP doesn't it? if not then it doesn't generate much!! Good for everyone (esp. SS and Joat) - bad for WM.
Regen sheilds is actually quite good. Jammers are your godsends and even when sappers appear regen can come in handy - just make sure that he doesn't get a shot after those sappers 
{mod edit: fixed the ZZZ}
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2007 06:15] by Moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Sat, 14 December 2002 17:29 |
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| zoid |
| Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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ABOUT GENERALIZED RESEARCH:
| freakyboy wrote on Sat, 14 December 2002 06:23 |
I'm the kind of play who picks 2 or 3 cheap techs and ONLY researches those. Then trade for the remaining tech or just gain tech from war. usually weapons and construction are the ones most people pick - as such it could be a good idea to pick say propulsion and electronics... that way you can trade effectively - your ships can spread further than anyone and you have the scanners to find more people - just an idea bu there u go.
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| Apelord wrote on Sat, 14 December 2002 07:33 |
GR-dead meat in a competitive game. Halving the points that focus on your cheap feilds just slows you down tremendously.
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I'll have to concede on those points. Our difference is probably the result of limited multiplayer game experience on my part, or extensive multiplayer game experience on yours.
But I keep remembering the JOAT race I designed once upon a time intending to be diplomatically focused, and though I tried really hard I had no success at diplomacy. I was the first one eliminated from the game. I confess that hitherto I don't count on positive diplomacy when I design my race. I design my race as best as I can to go it alone, and if positive diplomacy arises, good. If not, good. Diplomacy takes a lot of time anyway. Huge universe, good position, 1 hour to play my turn and 3 hours spent in email communications between allies.
For me, diplomacy is only a wildcard, one that unfortunately is most often found in the hands of my enemies. 
{mod edit: fixed the ZZZ}
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2007 06:16] by Moderator
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Ummm, sure! I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Sun, 15 December 2002 13:51 |
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| Robert |
| Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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Some thoughts...
most people dont like UR... well... it depends on the game.
i have seen games in which i built not a single warship until
i had doomsday battleships... if there is nothing to scrap,
there is no gain.
but imagine you play in a slow-tech, small universe game.
you need to fight early, and you will gain new tech every
5-6 turns... starting with beta-destroyers, then colly-frigs,
then colly-cruisers and early jihads, then blaster and jugger
battleships... first doomsdays - one day armageddons and finally
the nubian design-counter-counter-counter...
UR is _very_ nice to have in such a game... but i agree it is
often useless in large universes...
also many people dont know the real formula (it is NOT 75% as
stated in the help!) - it is
(rtbsts+rcmop)/(rtbsts*rcmop)
rtbsts = resources to build ship to scrap
rcmop = resources currently made on planet
so if you scrap your large jihad-battleship on a planet
with 5K pop, you gain nothing - if you scrap your silly
scout on your homeworld, you nearly gain 98% of the resources!
once i played an 3-i AR and had LOTS of worlds... and i scraped
all my miners when i got a new design, and because i scraped them
on different planets i got nearly all resources back!
sometimes i got such many resources, that the miners i could
build from them were more efficient than the ones i scrapped!
i think this could also work with SD minelayers...
next thing it makes you more dangerous... an enemy who is not
afraid of building early ships is more dangerous than players
who fear it...
also you can build up new planets much quciker when scrapping
ships there... you get new planets to work really quickly...
nice to have, but because of the formula not really good...
you can also use it to speed up production if you are in need.
so if you need to finish that few important ships and some
few resources are missing - no problem.
so if the enemy is coming and you cant build your base because
some resources are missing... arg...
or if you need that single tech urgently you can give yourself
a boost... ok - not realistic...
still you become very flexible - and depending on the game this
can be VERY nice to have...
also you get something tradeable - if someone wants your tech
or something, and has nothing of worth to offer for you... he
can trade you resources!
nobody else can do that (and if you exchange tech by scrapping-
nice bonus you get there...).
well... i love UR - but it is quite expensive...
[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2003 21:25] by Moderator
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| Re: LRTs |
Fri, 20 December 2002 15:14 |
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Greetings All,
The LRT's in Stars have unique Characteristics when used, and even more significant effects when Coupled with other LRT's. One of the most Obvious is the IFE/NRSE combo, providing the Fuel Mizer as well as the tech 11 heavy engine. Though there of course is a problem with this, as after tech 11 and the better Rams come into play the warp 10 engine becomes WAY to expensive and heavy to match up with other ships. Not to mention you have to devote extra resources into Super Fuel Xports to compensate for the fuel Usage.
IFE itself coupled with the RS LRT provides a game with light ships which are fast on the Battle board AND on the map, being both cheap, gatable, and self sufficient. Personally I take this combo every chance I get, and if I am going with a tech Mongering Low Hab SS I toss in ISB and acts as a basis for quick colonization of planets that are far from each other, as well as providing quick instalation of Stargates to move in my large stacks of Frigate Beamers, Cruiser Beamers, Light Beamer BB's, and later on Torp and Beamer Nubians.
ARM/OBRM: These two LRT's are very interesting and can reflect largely upon the econ of the race using it. AR are usually the most likely to use ARM, though Hyper Producers looking to find an extra Mineral Draw from neighboring planets early on also con stick with the ARM LRT. OBRM on the flip side provides one race with a 10% Increase in your Maximum Colonists on each planet, though eliminating all but one enefficient miner. JoAT can definately benefit from this but also races plan on multiple planets can also benefit from this as well. Though who says you have to go for one or the other? A hyper producer with _Basic_ Remote mining can easily use the basic miners to get those much needed minerals from neighboring planets. It is just up to the designer of the race if they choose to be live mostly on planets or in orbit of other planets.
CE/BET: This combo can be used mixed with the IFE/NRSE/OBRM LRT's with a -f WM for a number of reasons. Since you have 4 disadvantages and one advantage (Regen Shields can be mixed in, but you would be _Paying_ for the disadvantage) you get a LOT of race points which can be put into 3 cheap tech fields, 1/800 col efficiency and the wide hab, providing the WM with quick Research of needed tech, as well as a Miniaturization of Horde Ship designs. Considering the WM needs range 3 beamers and Armagedon Missle Dreadnaughts, Nubians becomes the expensive ship to pick, and with the heavy mass of the Dreadnaughts Gates are out of the question anyways, though in Battle the bonus of 1/2 movement in battle compensates for this, and CE/BET make the tech 11 Engine Cheap. Keep in mind though that these LRT's are meant to be in Galaxies where the planets are REALLY close together (Packed), and the enemies are closer as well. BET, although bad, isn't as bad as CE, but if played correctly can be efficiently used. Otherwise CE itself can be used by IT races considering their gates make up for just about everything, and SD who has the ability to pump out mines EVERY year, stoped or not, and those mines in turn cover any mishaps in the prossess of the 10% chance of your ships not getting to their destination. Use these LRT's only if you know what you are doing.
UR/MA: These two LRT's are strictly meant for late game play, when every mineral is important to the construction of your fleet. MA would be nice if it where cheap enough to ignore mines with, unfortunately the cost of the alchemy strips HUGELY away from you factory growth. Of course in a team game UR could be used by a mineral monger in a team game to recover resources from tech trading and can also be used as an expensive way to increase production on poor resource planets.
Either way, the LRT's in Stars! should not be thought about by their own, but how they would work with a particular PRT and econ moddle. Personally I think of how my Economy is going to work with my PRT and use my LRT's to cover weaknesses and gaps in the design (My SS Tech Monger for example). There is a lo
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Re: LRTs
There are few things more frustrating than consistently missing the MT while your neighbors are scoring. 
Combined attacks are also very tough to coordinate with CE, and if your fleet doesn't show up reliably, your allies start to hate you after a while.
