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I'm mearly trying this -fm idea which is alot less than most of you. Play it, try it, THEN slate it if you have to.

I honestly tried... stopped at 2435 or so. It just wastes all its iron and resources into remote miners freighters and terraforming, so it got no -f ability to start to fight from the second you see someone and seriously attack someone at 2425-2430.

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Stars! could do with a few new ideas and this is one. Don't be so quick to throw it to one side.

Okay, right, but the -M idea is not so new. -FM is new for me true. Also the -T (all tech expensive) idea is not much talked about. I have played once one in PBM as replacement... took it at #9 place but when game ended i was #2 from 14.

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You're all comparing this to an AR race, I believe -FM was originally going to be a race that could compete with -F CA's. Ok so it's not... not even close, but it has some valid design points that are worth looking into a little more than most of you will.

... it is just me and Sotek. Why i compare it with AR... it has most similar econ thinking to AR. "my pop just does nothing but spreads and terraforms". We have to compare it with something that is similarily weak early but lot more powerful later.

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Sure it's not as good at mining as JOAT or AR, but it's still better than most races. The weakest point of this race is resources... I'm shocked that you're not picking that apart left right and centre - instead your concentrating on minerals!!!

I tried to mention economy density and concentration here or there... sorry if you did not see it.

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-f works for most PRT's HP works for all prt's bar maybe AR and HE HG works for ALL prt's Hybrids work for all prt's. -fm works for IT and thats about it really.

Its bit too extreme to be called *valid* and *works*. Worth testing ... yes but tests now show nothing good so far. I call it valid to drop OBRM with IT in large game and take weaker than average mines ... for example 10/3/13. Its valid. Still works. Frigate war would be bit hard with germ, BB era it catches up. Can remote, can live with weaker planetary mines. It is not so damn weak in all aspects like our -FM.

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And all starbases are weak - regardless of everything. Yeah armageddon BB's are expensive... but chaff isn't. 4x32 armaggedon missiles from a DS. Thats 128 chaff per volley from the DS... thats 512 resources of chaff per volley... a DS should drop after 1 maybe 2 volleys. It's a huge problem with stars... maybe starbase chaff might be a good idea? lots of little orbital forts or something

Ohh okay sole orbital is weak against 40 Arma BB-s and 1000 chaff. What about counterdesigns? Gate in 6 high init mega disruptor bb-s that kill 1000 chaff with one blow, (max damage orders) maybe few with shield sappers too... just count how lot you need to kill the shields of BB-s? Do the BB-s have jammers? Otherwise they will be met with 4x32x1050=134400 dp of Arma damage the first round that means 24 valanium-armored BB-s will eat dirt with one shot while the expenses from AR side were few beamer bb-s and cheapo Deathstar only. Not so bloody funny anymore.

Anyones orbital is weak. So how lot of such fleets there are coming? Can our AR build at least one fleet that can kill one of theirs? At least help his deathstar to kill it... at least partially? If it is only one BIG fleet they have and our AR cannot kill it then that fleet sure cannot be at all places? Maybe our AR can retake where they left away?
If opponent has 3 or 4 fleets and our AR still can not destroy single one of them he must be toast anyway, back to think about strategies and designs. Stars has to be winnable, even against AR.

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You guys are SO lucky that I have internet download limit...
Let's define what it means to be an -fm:
*Fac on x/25/y
*Mines on 10/3/5 or worse
*Non-OBRM

Lets examine general trends of choosing -fm mining settings compared to classical -f with all other things being equal. An -f race would have OBRM and at least 10/3/10 mines. Let's lower the mines to 8/3/5. This gives you 133 pts which is enough to deselect OBRM and select ARM (the later is my pref but it is optional as I'll show later). 133 pts is also enough to make mines cost 2res but I think that ARM is better.
This mine setting gives you 40% mining rate of 10/3/10. We know that -f type races are tolerable to mineral starvation diet. Indeed even with this setting you can easily reach 36k by 2450, if you build only freighters or scouts (some minerals left over), I know this from stars! race archives- check out the SoB WM if ye don't believe me.
A trully "hardcore" -fm race might indeed be viable in team games only as the pts u get from dec mine settings is very hard to spend well.
I would imagine however that the immidiate mineral needs could be satisfied easily with 8/3/5 untill the better RM come into play. Here is why u can't outmine a -fm race: (despite what other people presume)

Introducing a new indicator to mining capability- minerals mined/res spend index. This index is a better indicator of your mining capabilities than res/mine since it is minerals that u are trying to get.

A really high mine setting race would have around 500(!) mines on its worlds. With this setting it takes 16 yrs to remove half of minerals and 32 to almost totally strip mine it, i. e. you spend 3*500=1500 res to get 15000 kt of min.

Lez be pessimistic and say that RM are twice as expensive as mines and we are RM an average min con world every time.
RM fleet of 1600 mines strips a world in 10 yrs and takes 1 yrs to get to another one (I can prove that ) i. e. u got your 15000 kt in 11 yrs but RM are twice as exp so double that time to 22 yrs and u get the time period after which the RM are better invenstment in terms of minerals/res than ground based mines And this with the very basic 18mine RM and on average min con planets!!!

As u can see -fm becomes a mining leader in late 2450+ when other people are on starvation.

I hope that people will see that outmining -fm is only possible with another -fm or AR in VERY late game.

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I just wanted to post a method to calc your hab better than the RW does:
Assume no habs closer than 10 clicks to an edge for grav and T.
then,
Grav and T 38 clicks wide.
Rad 48 clicks wide.

Narrowest hab u can have is 10 clicks, knowing this u can know how wide your hab is (count the no.). U need to calc hab frction for a hab range i. e. if your T is 22 clicks wide your hab fraction is 22/38. To get the total hab ye need to multiply the hab fractions.

Example: my latest -fm race's hab is:
G(38/38)*T(23/38)*R(22/48)= 27.7% of all planets.

Hope to see exact %ages in new race designs...

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Hi!

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*Mines on 10/3/5 or worse

This way you save only 130 RW points and still have crippled race.

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... snip ... As u can see -fm becomes a mining leader in late 2450+ when other people are on starvation.

Starvation of minerals for what reason? Most experienced players agree there's enough minerals with normal mine settings until turn 90-100, when games usually end.

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I hope that people will see that outmining -fm is only possible with another -fm or AR in VERY late game.

Why should I try to outmine it in late game when I can easily criple and kill it in early mid game? A hint: when I see a race producing remote miners early, I usually go after it's planets and remotes, because I know it has worse mineral output then mine and can not afford early war.
BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Fri, 05 September 2003 05:13]

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alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 05 September 2003 05:52

Let's define what it means to be an -fm: *Fac on x/25/y *Mines on 10/3/5 or worse *Non-OBRM

OK. Prove it works then. Testbed. Something.

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Lets examine general trends of choosing -fm mining settings compared to classical -f with all other things being equal. An -f race would have OBRM and at least 10/3/10 mines.

Nope... 10/3/13 is OK for -f. Maybe 10/3/11 for one-immune. Less than that and you do have too few minerals then again take 10/3/15 and you are unable to burn all minerals with shipbuilding because you dont have resources.

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Let's lower the mines to 8/3/5. This gives you 133 pts which is enough to deselect OBRM and select ARM (the later is my pref but it is optional as I'll show later).

Why. 8/3/5 are terrible mines... maybe you can get enough minerals to build freighters with these mines. You dropped early warfighting ability and so made your -f unable to enlarge his territory with military. Since its -f it will get about 1/3 of other races resources without expanding. Also... anyone who wants comes and stomps you.

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This mine setting gives you 40% mining rate of 10/3/10. We know that -f type races are tolerable to mineral starvation diet.

And 30% of 10/3/13. Usually the -f puts 1/3 of his minerals into freightering and all the rest into warfighting. If it has diet then it has no warships but only freighters. Who you can win with freighters?

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Indeed even with this setting you can easily reach 36k by 2450, if you build only freighters or scouts (some minerals left over), I know this from stars! race archives- check out the SoB WM if ye don't believe me.

That is bull#### on both accounts. SoB has 10/3/10 mines and can get only up to 31K in prescanned medium packed played alone. Noone has got 36K with it. You drop OBRM so you are lucky if you get 25K there. And SoB has weak mines. Weaker than average -f.

In real game you get maybe territory of 30-40 planets. So test these things in tiny normal or tiny dense alone to see its real game abilities. There you will get 15K with SoB and 12K with -fm by 2450. If you play it wery well that is.

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A trully "hardcore" -fm race might indeed be viable in team games only as the pts u get from dec mine settings is very hard to spend well.

-FM as team partner? In team i want to see someone who has narrow hab so it can intersettle, can research one or two things into high levels and has useful toys. -f it is not it and IT it is not too. CA or SD HP is good team-mate, IS HG is good team mate AR is perfect team partner. But -f? Its a joke.

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Introducing a new indicator to mining capability- minerals mined/res spend index. This index is a better indicator of your mining capabilities than res/mine since it is minerals that u are trying to get. A really high mine setting race would have around 500(!) mines on its worlds. With this setting it takes 16 yrs to remove half of minerals and 32 to almost totally strip mine it, i. e. you spend 3*500=1500 res to get 15000 kt of min.

What you are talking about? I usually have 10/3/18 + OBRM as my standard mine setting. It is almost 2000 mines max so it makes i have about 1000 mines on average planet (i breed from good planets and fill smaller planets).
Now lets test a planet with 1000 mines and where mineral conc is 60. 60 is average conc.
Lets say 70 years OK? 17800kt minerals, conc 10 (not stripped) and still mining at rate 100 minerals of sort.
So i practically pay 3000 resources to get 17800kt x 3 minerals

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Lez be pessimistic and say that RM are twice as expensive as mines and we are RM an average min con world every time. RM fleet of 1600 mines strips a world in 10 yrs and takes 1 yrs to get to another one (I can prove that ) i. e. u got your 15000 kt in 11 yrs

You can prove what? Let me open testbed... 1600 mines miner fleet takes 44 years to get 17800kt of minerals out of ground from initially 60 conc world.
Max remote miner fleet is 4000 mines. Lets say it cost

[Updated on: Wed, 10 September 2003 10:44] by Moderator

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Coyote wrote on Fri, 01 August 2003 20:33

alexdstewart wrote on Fri, 01 August 2003 17:28 # HW' do not get their mineral concentration below 30. This means that you can depopulate your WH and build as many remote miners over it as your heart desires. This way you get an inexhaustable mineral supply while the rest of universe that took OBRM struggles to squize last few stones from rocks at min consentration of 10. That only applies while the homeworld is POPULATED, so only AR races can take advantage of this.

would it be nise if in year 2550 you bloy up a AR deathstar and inhatet it and find 10 miilion kt of each mineral !!! that would atleats be anofe to make a preaty impreasive war fleet!!!!

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Quote:

Lez be pessimistic and say that RM are twice as expensive as mines

don't forget to include the MINERAL cost of the remotes, as well as the resource cost. I takes a while for remote miners to break even on mineral cost (as well as resource cost relative to regualr mines)

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vonboy wrote on Sun, 14 September 2003 21:51

would it be nise if in year 2550 you bloy up a AR deathstar and inhatet it and find 10 miilion kt of each mineral !!! that would atleats be anofe to make a preaty impreasive war fleet!!!!

Dream on. Your AR player is braindead or something hes mining so lot?

Say it has 30 colonies. Lets say average colony can build 3 big warships per year and these cost 3000 minerals. So all it needs (very late game when it only builds ships) are 25 miner fleets at its HW. Earlier he can live with less because concentrations are above 30 and he wants to research too.

Every colony of his receives 25 large freighters of minerals once in 10 years. If its more border world he may send 15 large freighters once in 6 years. That is it what you can get destroying his colony and he did not note you are coming there. 15 large freighters of minerals.

Now... when he gets 6 colonies more from somewhere he builds 5 miner fleets more. No way AR mines more than he needs.

If he does have too lot of sort of mineral lets say germanium or boranium ... he may dump it into deep space... or give to ally. Whatever.

Now if AR player drops out but his 25 miner fleets are still mining... you get to wait 340 years to have "10 miilion kt of each mineral" lying at his homeworld.

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vonboy wrote on Sun, 14 September 2003 14:51

would it be nise if in year 2550 you bloy up a AR deathstar and inhatet it and find 10 miilion kt of each mineral !!! that would atleats be anofe to make a preaty impreasive war fleet!!!!

Most likely any AR that makes it to 2550 will be using your minerals more than you are using his.

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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 29 August 2003 10:57

Race: IT IFE, ARM, RS 0.53g to 1.96g -92c to 92c Rad immune (1/4 hab) 20% gr -FM econ settings weap, cons cheap prop, energy, elec normal bio expensive.

Well, I was keeping quiet about this because I wanted to try it in another game, but I don't think I'll be using it after all.

I started with a goal of trying to design a race for which UR or MA would actually be useful, but even with mineless, they still aren't (I've since found a use for UR though in another context).

I've been testbedding this idea for quite a while, and I took this race into an actual game:

PRT: IT
LRT: ARM, ISB, NAS (should have had RS, but didn't)
0.53g to 1.80g
Temp immune
Rad: 16mR to 84mR
(1/3 hab)
19% gr
-FM econ settings
Weap, Prop, Con cheap,
Energy normal,
Elec, Bio expensive,
Expensive start at 3.

This race designed for a non ACC-BBS start (my game preference anyway, it only costs a few turns, and a wider variety of races such as AR stand a better chance)

Design Rationale:

* Use the massive amount of points given my -m and the somewhat lesser amount of points used by -f to take good tech settings, and _really_ good hab.
* Definately don't want NRSE, as makes cost of engines crippling
* Don't want IFE, as it is expensive without NRSE, so use cheap propulsion instead
* NAS so can be really sure that you can spot things coming before they see the mining fleet
* A trick: by taking Elec expensive, and Expensive start at 3, my starting Con/Elec were 5/3 - so the two miners that I started with were Robo-miners, for 48 mine equivalents right from the start.

To play:

After an initial couple of scouts and a medium freighter, start building potato bugs at full speed, and mine the nearest worthwhile planet. Move all the ironium and most of the pop from the second planet to the first for faster ramp up. Also scrap the starting DD and Freighter for ironium when it starts running short.

When the planet is about to reach 25%, start building enough medium freighters and colony ships to keep it there, settling one planet each turn. Take just enough extra minerals to build a space dock, and send the freighters back for reuse. If this is done carefully, there will be enough ironium to build enough freighters and keep building some miners. It is _crucial_ to be always building more miners. It is not uncommon in testbeds for there to be enough ironium that the homeworld never has to spend anything on research.

Research Prop to at least 8, pref 9 for good ramscoop engines, then take Cons to 8 for larger freighters, Elec 4 for better miners, and Cons 10 for the inf/300ly starbase. It is crucial to be building large gateable freighters relatively early, otherwise when the first colonies reach 25%, all the ironium will be gobbled by freighters.

Then keep researching Con/Elec as fast as possible to keep building better miners.

Expand aggressively, scan aggressively (I eventually drop a 'bug' at each planet because I have NAS), and kill any scouts that even come close to the mining fleet, say within 200 ly (SS and WM would be the bane of this race, JOAT is a problem too).

Lots and lots of MM - if you aren't carefully shepherding every kiloton of ironium for the first 40 or more years, you aren't doing it right.

I took this into a 3 player game, Non Acc-BBS start, Medium, Dense (but the universe stretched by a non-player to normal density), 3 Expert AI robotoid players (the HE ones). Special rules: because 3 players, there was only 'open diplomacy', in that all messages had to be CC'ed to all players, and no tech/ship trading, otherwise the top player will too easily be brought down by an alliance of the other two.

Results:

I quickly made two enemies because of my killing their scouts, but expanded to fill half the galaxy (sharing that half with the AIs which I largely ignored, only gradually beating them back).

I know one of my opponents was a HP JOAT, the other was IT. I attacked the JOAT (fleets, not planets) with whatever low-ironium beam

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[Updated on: Wed, 26 November 2003 13:45]

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