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I've been absent for a while so I didn't have the opportunity to contribute to this facinating debate.

I might be a godless, unethical and genocidal bastard who doesn't aknowledge existance of universal moral code and therefore of good and evil, but I still understand that violence solves only the simplest of problems. I also understand that force of arms is the ultimate base of power. I understand that most(all?) conflicts stem from population pressures and/or competition for res. Humankind was born to fight and will die fighting. The history itself, if you take away all the glamour is the chronology of bloodbaths.
In face of this the concept of good and evil is meaningless. In all wars there was were no "bad guys", because all wars were fought by the "good guys". I do not wish to force my opinion on people, just to state a few "facts", it can make you think and thats a good thing, since only thinking people can use their "freedon":
*Force is the ultimate base of power.
*Deception is a force multiplier.
*Most (all?) wars are over resourses and territory, often "justified" by by political and regilious ideological differences. (Otherwise why would USSR and China be enemies?)
*The notable "democracies" USA, England, Israel (IMO a disguised facist state) are all based on blood and genocide. Read history if you disagree (The history that is not written by the victor that is... might be hard to find...). I do not claim that other countries are much different.
*Israel was a "democracy" when it started its genocidal war against Palestinian people. And yes, Palestinians ARE Palestinians, read the bible to find why nobody calls the "promised land" for what it trully is - PALESTINE.
*A democracy bend on agressive war is every bit as bad as a dictatorship bend on doing the same.
*The Nazi party were not all right wing fanatics, although they were certainly right wing . Just think of that zoid, what company are you sharin

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Okay. Since we apparently disagree 100% on everything else...

Isn't Stars a wonderful game?

There's one thing we have in common, and perhaps that's it. I learned my lesson from the warning label affixed to my last political diatribe, so I'm going to let you have the last word on this topic, unchallenged.

Cheers to you too.

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[Updated on: Sat, 20 December 2003 23:41]

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Curious question. Where in the U.S. is this Republic of Texas that you post from?

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BlueTurbit wrote on Sat, 20 December 2003 20:34

I wanted to answer this entire post but there is just too much garbage to make it worthwhile to respond to all the ignorance and misinformation you printed. So with regard to my fellow Americans and friends of ours I will cut to the part....

Thanks, BlueTurbit. I'm glad I left it to someone else (much more eloquent and gracious than I) to answer.

You're a great American in my book.

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overworked wrote on Sat, 20 December 2003 22:41

Curious question. Where in the U.S. is this Republic of Texas that you post from?

Texas was a country, the republic of Texas, before it became a state. Texas yielded its ambitions and gave the rest of the country to the others out of compassion. We instead kept the biggest part for ourselves and joined the union to pacify the others, otherwise they would all be nervous about our presence. Just like many are nervous about America because of its presence. To this day many are still nervous about Texas as they like to comment and joke much about our great state. We used to be the largest state, and if some of that damn snow and ice would melt in Alaska we will be again.
So we are no longer the republic of Texas but a part of the republic of the United States.
Because of the size of our state Texans used to joke and brag about everything in Texas is bigger.
For example: A man from Kentucky was talking with a Texas oilman and he bragged about his state. He told the Texan: "We have enough gold in Fort Knox to build a gold fence around Texas"
The Texan scratched his head and said: "Well, son, you go ahead and build that fence, and if we like it, we'll buy it"

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LEit wrote on Sat, 20 December 2003 23:19

And with that piece of wisdom, can we please let this topic die?

What's your problem? This is the chat area forum where you can discuss anything you want. You don't have to read this if you don't want, do you?

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BlueTurbit wrote on Sun, 21 December 2003 06:25

LEit wrote on Sat, 20 December 2003 23:19 And with that piece of wisdom, can we please let this topic die? What's your problem? This is the chat area forum where you can discuss anything you want. You don't have to read this if you don't want, do you?

I'm afraid I gotta agree with LEit. If no one posted anything more in this thread, it would still be too soon, no matter how eloquently put.

Quote:

zoid said: Okay. Since we apparently disagree 100% on everything else... Isn't Stars a wonderful game?

proud of ya zoid


Ash

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Hey, it appears that zoid is not the only one with the habbit of sticking his foot in peoples' mouths...

I lived in many countries under most regimes. After that experience I can agree that living in European capitalism is probaly the best, with American Capitalism being close second.
I call it "capitalism" because it just isn't democracy- only ancient greeks had "democracy"- I can concede you calling it "republic" or "oligarchy" but difference between "democracy" and "US democracy" is simular to difference between "communism" and "socialism" (despite the comi boogie man, there was never any "communist" gov in the world... like ever)

I make no secret that I HATE the American GOVERMENT, not the people (I am too smart to assume that all Americans are stupid, arrogant etc...). And THAT is only for ONE REASON and ONE REASON ONLY:
USA makes up HALF of the world's military budget and that it spends it on AGRESSIVE WAR. Since US controls 25% of worlds economy, one question begs to be answered- what's your TAX rate? Who threatens you so much that you have to have 1million+ army of MERCINARY SOLDIERS? Surely not Mexico, or Canada?

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the American Dream Idea (though I get disellusioned as time passes by). But WHY IN THE WORLD would you want to invade other countries, even former allies- which Iraq certainly is? I know the answer- to exploit the resources to satisfy ever growing demand for econ growth. The US isn't the first and won't be the last to do so. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with the effects it has on human development however.

I am all pro OWGov policy, exterminating dictators and bombing democracy into the World and all that rot, as long as it HELPS the HUMAN DEVELOPMENT on this planet. BUT IMO USA STAGNATES the world.

I've seen countries robbed of their independance by the "gifts" from the American Gov, the loans hav

[Updated on: Mon, 22 December 2003 01:12]

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gible wrote on Sun, 21 December 2003 03:10

Much as I love a good political argument I've not commented on much of this thread for the simple fact that I couldn't be bothered. There's just too much to comment on...and my own political beliefs are either way ahead of their time or just too radical. Or both. However I do like to throw bones in the pit and watch the beasts have at it. So... One thing I've always wondered is: What would happen if the individual states that make up the US of A were given the right to withdraw from the union and become independant states?

I would't even BOTHER to stick my finger in a hornet's nest if I didn't at least HOPE to reach a certain degree of CONCENSUS with yea guys. So I would really like for you gible to throw some meat with the bones too...

Aw, aw , awuoooo....

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BlueTurbit wrote on Sat, 20 December 2003 23:34

I wanted to answer this entire post but there is just too much garbage to make it worthwhile to respond to all the ignorance and misinformation you printed. I: I would like to take a moment to explain why many people in the world do not deserve what America has done for the world. 1.) Human Rights Champion. The United States is one of the most prominent champions of human rights, not only within the U.S., but also throughout the world. 3.) America Is Always A Trusted Ally. 4.) America Is A Superpower With Empathy. 6.) The United States Is A Global Leader In Technology And Innovation. 7.) The United States Is Also A World Leader In Foreign Aid. 8.) The United States Is A Leader In Finance For The Rest Of The World. Through the establishment of the World Bank, the U.S. has also championed the provision of trillions of dollars annually in financial support and loans to needy countries. for the entire article: http://www.tmcnet.com/cis/1101/1101po.htm

Well, that's a FIRST time someone called me IGNORANT in my LIFETIME.(What have I done to deserve 'tis?)
I: I totally agree with you on that one- NONE of the 50 countries United States has invaded since WWII DESERVED IT.
1) You need to look no futher than Guantanamo Bay Cuba and Death Sentence for that one...
3) I am SURE that Saddam Hussein of Iraq, chinise rebels, gassed Kurds and Osama Bin Laden will agree with you... I mean 100%
4) Agent Orange, Fat Boy, Hollow point bullets, flechettes, cluster bombs AND DU shells speak for themselves, for those who care to listen
6) I got to agree- American smart bombs hit exacly where they fall... and "precision carpet bombing" is quite cool too.
7) I think that I adressed the question of decapitating loans somewhere before...
So far the experince shows that only countries that stay as far away from the "World Bank" as possible prosper. Cuba is still a prosperous dictatorship, while Brasil/Mexico are very much in deep... aghem,

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alexdstewart wrote on Mon, 22 December 2003 19:21

gible wrote on Sun, 21 December 2003 03:10 Much as What would happen if the individual states that make up the US of A were given the right to withdraw from the union and become independant states? I would't even BOTHER to stick my finger in a hornet's nest if I didn't at least HOPE to reach a certain degree of CONCENSUS with yea guys. So I would really like for you gible to throw some meat with the bones too...

mmmm meat...juicy red meat dripping with the blood of delicious yummy sheepies bounding in soft fluffy wool...(I love The 10th Kingdom)

But really..I am curious. Given that since the British Empire was disbanded in favour of the Commonwealth and this same right conferred several countries have done exactly that without massive war ensuing I wonder would mainland US really care if Hawaii chose to go it alone? With Alaska they might get annoyed about the oil but then multinationals own that anyway and they're not really all that bothered who's country the oil is in.

Quote:

Aw, aw , awuoooo....

To quote an old friend(Fenris)
"Dogs prefer cats ARRrrrrooooOOOO!"

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Alexdstewart, that was the funniest and most twisted diatribe I have ever heard! Man, this thread is like the Twilight Zone! (Dee nee nee nee, dee nee nee nee...) I actually DID bust a gut laughing.

Look, there's nothing anyone can say or do that is going to change your perspective. NOTHING - so while all the words ring false to me, I'm not going to debate any of it.

I only want to point out one commonality I've noticed in all of these political discussions of late - Everyone who begins with "I don't believe in God, good and evil, black and white, etc, shares the same twisted perspective about the United States and make similar irrational and venemous statements about EVERYTHING the US does. Because they do not believe in good or evil, black or white, etc, they make some rather interesting arguments diametrically opposed to what seems an obvious truth to me, like equating George Bush Jr with Adolf Hitler. How can anyone say George Bush Jr is the most dangerous man who ever lived, except Adolf Hitler was smarter? The moral equivalence of the two men (along with the intellectual comparison) I just can't see. Good is bad, black is white, up is down, inside is out - the logic is very perverse and the only clarity is the unflagging hatred these people have for the U.S. My main point is that in almost every case, when someone says "I don't believe in God, good and evil, black and white, etc...", the theme "America sucks" follows. Anyone else notice that?

I'm agnostic, but even without God I still believe in good and evil, and that sometimes things ARE indeed as black and white as they appear to be. The Bible says the beginning of wisdom is to fear God. Well, I dunno about that, but the more arguments I hear beginning with "I don't believe in God, good and evil, black or white" leads me to believe that the beginning of wisdom ARE these things, because wisdom and clarity are so commonly hard to find in the words of those who deny these concepts.

BTW, everyone wh

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