Home » Old Game Forums » Sky Harbor II » Is this the end?
 Is this the end? |
Fri, 06 June 2003 11:55  |
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It has come to the decision of the Luap that the end is near.
As the combined power of the Nexus and Cheekybugger forces can no longer be matched in the Universe, and their alliance prevents any changes in the Nexus rankings, The Luap would consider The Mighty Nexus as complete ruler of the Universe.
Our continued resistance has proved futile, and no longer will even be educational.
Unless a dramatic diplomatic change is in the future, The Luap suggest we all lick our wounds and congratulate Feliks.
What does the rest of the universe think? I have no Idea how to set up a vote box? sorry..
The Luap
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sat, 07 June 2003 14:45  |
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I guess if Steve has decided that he's not interested in winning the game and the Cheekybuggers are going to continue to back the Nexus then I doubt that anyone but Feliks can win the game(the point is to win right?).
If the rest of you think that there's some value to keep playing I will since this is my 1st pbem and it might be interesting to see what kind of nubian designs show up.
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sat, 07 June 2003 16:24 |
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With the announcement of a formal alliance between Nexus, Cheekybugger, and Yapyap I see no reason to keep playing. All I could do now is get pounded on. Congrats Feliks, well played!
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sun, 08 June 2003 10:49 |
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| Steve1 |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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Yes come on guys, positions are not set in stone as yet. The idea is to play until 2520.
You can't have a player vote yet unless everyone else wants to do the same.
Besides I only just got the mini-morph from the MT and might want to create some innovative designs from that.
Regards - Steve
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sun, 08 June 2003 11:01 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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It seems to me that some Stars players have a different idea to me as to the purpose of the game.
It's nice to win, but I'm more than happy to be part of a winning team if it means that my "long term ally" gets to win the game.
I won the last game (Sky1) and have no problems with a deserving ally coming first in this game.
Regards - Steve
Cheekybuggers
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sun, 08 June 2003 13:07 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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In reply to Blue Turbit:
You may well be more experienced than all of us, but you make some assumptions too. The alliance currently occupies the positions of 1st, 3rd and 5th. We all intend to qualify for the championships and if the other 3 remaining races feel that they can't qualify for this esteemed position, they are entitled to drop out if they feel so inclined.
The Cheekybuggers might have fought against Nexus for a bit of fun, but not if it could affect his position in attaining the championships.
The Cheekybuggers are well aware that Nexus or the Yap yaps could possibly be alligned against us in the championships, but are willing to accept this as part of the way the game plays out.
Cheekybuggers would prefer to end a game with allies intact rather than backstab (which we never do) or break a long standing alliance without good reason. Nexus is one of the best allies we've ever had and there is no way Cheekybuggers will break this alliance to potentially attain some supposed glorification status.
The way Cheekybuggers see it is this:
In a far distant galaxy there lies a planet called Earth.
Earth had a battle on a grand scale called WWII (world war 2).
A country called America was bombed by a country called Japan.
America then entered the world war and was instrumental in defeating the Japanese/German/Italian alliance. After they were clearly victorious, some Americans wanted to go on and also defeat Russia, but they were prevented from doing this by congress.
They never would have considered attacking England though, as England was a very important and crucial ally.
This is exactly how Cheekybuggers view Nexus. As a very important and crucial ally. Yes it's nice to be no.#1, but if your alliance of 3 races (one of which is coming 5th), out of an original 8, can force the others to surrender then so be it.
It could well have turned out very differently and the
Nexus / Cheekybugger alliance could have been the ones in trouble, but Hirota and the Yap yaps had a falling out and our alliance reaped the benefits. Who am I to complain ?
Regards
Steve Hutchison
cable4pc@bigpond.net.au
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sun, 08 June 2003 14:29 |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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Hi.  Actually I wasn't assuming much of anything. I only offer suggestions here as help and as Ashlyn invited me to participate in any discussion here when she asked me to watch her games while she was gone. And this game appears to be going south.
I have my own games to manage and my posting here is merely to try to be helpful, not to make problems.
I was merely citing 1, 2, 3 as an example. I didn't know what positions the alliance members are in. I only read that some players see frustration with the current situation and are discouraged enough to want to end it now and call it a game. And some want to continue to enjoy the game under the assumption that everyone still has a chance.
So what experienced players sometimes do is compromise and make adjustments with respect to game play in order to continue to have fun and win at the same time. I base my opinion on having played nearly 5 years and dozens of multiplayer games. And I merely offer suggestion not mandates. I recall many games where alliances were readjusted to benefit the game.
If, for example, #1 position has a huge overwhelming lead over the second place player and down the line, then even a 1,3,5 alliance would be unbalanced with respect to power.
Many players often choose to align against such a monster in order to chop him down in size and balance the scale more.
But in the end it is up to you as indivdual players. If your only goal is to make the championship then perhaps you choose the right path. If on the other hand, your goal is also to continue to have fun, as it is a game afterall, then you might want to choose the option to make adjustments and continue to have fun, like try out your new ships, etc., rather than end it all now as some suggest.
If I were one of the other three races I would concentrate on #5 or #3 and knock him out of the championship if that is possible to do... as revenge. 
Respectfully,
BlueTurbit
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sun, 08 June 2003 15:10 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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My goal is to have fun and win as an alliance.
If another alliance chooses to quit because of that, then that's their choice.
Having fun doesn't necessarily mean to me that I have to undermine my allies position.
I accept your suggestions but still choose to support my ally. To me that's kind of the idea.
If one or more of the other three remaining races want to have a good go at us as revenge then let them try.
Regards - Steve
Cheekybuggers
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Sun, 08 June 2003 17:59 |
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I just want to clarify a few things.
First of all, there are only 5 people still in the game, not six. James quit a long time ago. MG quit even before that.
Second, there is no other alliance. There may have been one between the YapYaps and the Hirota, but that's long gone. Maybe if I was more experienced I would have had an alliance, but I didn't.
Third, the victory condition for this game is "Highest score after 120 years", check the game ad http://www.geocities.com/ashlynann/sky2.html. I'm sure you notice that's not highest team score. That means only one person can win. This was my first PBEM game and I was playing to win. I assumed that everyone else was playing to win as well, apparently I was wrong. I didn't sign on to play some championship game, that wasn't in the game ad so that's not how I've been playing. If the point was to qualify for another game, Sally probably shouldn't have let anyone from a different qualifying game into this one, especially if the game wasn't over or they had already qualified.
Now that the Nexus and Cheekybuggers have announced their three-race alliance with the YapYaps it officially makes the game pointless. If the Altoids keep attacking the YapYaps, the Nexus and Cheekybuggers will come after me as well. The Altoids certainly can't win that fight, even if the Luaps and the Altoids fought together. So tell me again, why would I keep playing?
Honestly, I don't understand why anyone wants to continue playing after an "alliance" has clearly given Feliks the win. Nexus is #1 and has been for the majority of the game. Paul and I have acknowledged Feliks as the winner and the rest of the active players are his "allies". Steve and Feliks have qualified for the "Championship". I'm sure Sally would let David play if that's the goal in wanting to drag this game on for another twelve weeks. Do you just want to pick if it's Paul or me who qualifies? Because that's the only thing that would be decided by playing any longer. Do me a favor though, next time you want to win as a team, join a team game.
Lastly, I just have to say that the whole WW2 comparison is totally invalid. Americans didn't want to attack England because they weren't enemies and America wasn't on a quest for world domination. England owed the US lots of money and they didn't represent any threat militarily or philosophically. There was no reason to fight England. Russia was a different case, they represented a threat. They had a massive military force, were communist, and had been a Nazi ally for a while. That's why Americans wanted to fight them.
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Mon, 09 June 2003 03:53 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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Yes it's true that the winning conditions are highest score by 2520. Cheekybuggers are more than happy to keep playing until that time. It is in fact the Altoids and Luap's whom are trying to utilise a player vote.
Cheekybuggers are well aware that as third position holder we can't claim a victory. The accolades so far belong to Nexus.
We are currently a part of the winning alliance though and this still gives us some satisfaction.
Hirota has the option still of coming back and although he probably won't, Cheekybuggers didn't think that the Luap's would re-activate either, so as far as we're concerned, there are still 6 players in the game.
You said:
"If the point was to qualify for another game, Sally probably shouldn't have let anyone from a different qualifying game into this one, especially if the game wasn't over or they had already qualified."
This issue was raised by our communication minister with the Host before this galaxy was even created.
The details weren't on the website but neither was the mention of any championship game either.
Our minister was advised however, that if either Hirota or Cheekybuggers qualify in Sky2, that "probably" 4th position would also be selected. That's fair !
All our alliance is saying, is that we want to continue until one or more of the following conditions are met:
a) The Yap yaps are in 4th position (or better).
b) Either the Luap's or Altoids concedes the game and
their place in the championship.
c) We reach the year 2520
You said:
"Lastly, I just have to say that the whole WW2 comparison is totally invalid. Americans didn't want to attack England because they weren't enemies."
By the same token Nexus and Cheekybuggers aren't enemies either. We've got along well for the entire game and never had a border dispute.
This is why we chose such an example !
We've exchanged vast amounts of technology, we've plotted and planned together. Basically Nexus has been an excellent ally and what you're asking the Cheekybuggers to do, is turn all of that against him. Sorry, but we just can't do such a thing !
You said:
"Do me a favor though, next time you want to win as a team, join a team game."
Please note that the rules on the original website do not specify a single race victory, only the "highest score after 120 years" !
Cheekybuggers have a suggestion though. We can't speak on Nexus' behalf but perhaps the Altoids would like to challenge Nexus for the no.#1 spot.
Cheekybuggers could continue to attack the Luaps, the Yap yaps could continue to battle Hirota.
You would have to ask Nexus if he's agreeable to this of course because we would certainly support our ally if he requests it.
Regards - Steve of the Cheekybuggers
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Mon, 09 June 2003 05:23 |
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 Nexus One |
 | Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: December 2002
Location: Szczecin, Poland | |
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Hi all,
Pax, pax, pax.
I'd like to put my own 2 cents (Polish cents  ) into this discussion.
First of all I'll like to point out that it would be pretty unfair if the game is finished if there are still people willing to continue it, especially that this idea was brought by a player who missed several turns recently. As the game was supposed to last 120 turns and some races might have been designed to develop (or benefit) in the later part of the game (e.g. they took UR, ARM or MA as LRTs, not mentioning inherited long-term benefits deriving from PRT) it would extremely unfair towards them to end the game after only 2/3 passed. If they designed a race to thrive through all 120 years, so in 80's they might still have potential for development and outscore other players (short-term races for example), even without any wars, multialliances , etc.
Still even if the player vote is set now, I am positive there will not be a majority of active players (out of 5 or 6) to end the game, and only such majority could call game's end (still I personally would not agree with that due to reason described above).
Indeed the goals of our alliance is to continue the game until any of these conditions is met:
a) The Yap yaps are in 4th position (or better).
b) Either the Luap's or Altoids concedes the game and
their place in the championship.
c) We reach the year 2520
Once a) and/or b) is achieved we can decide if we play or end the game (and still I will vote to keep playing).
Regards,
Feliks
Check out my new program S!RP (test version)!
ftp://library.southern.edu/starsreportsprocessor.zip
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Tue, 10 June 2003 03:42 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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Ah.... backstabbing was it.
I have 4 questions for you Mr. Luap !
a) Did we have an alliance at the time of attack ?
b) Did we have an non-aggression pact in force at the time of attack ?
c) How many years notice would you like before being attacked ?
d) How many years notice did you give the Ygrinni and Weader before attacking them.
This has been brought up before but bears rehashing given the last posting.
When the Luap's and Cheekybuggers had an alliance, whom was it that severed communications and whom was it that failed to provide tech as per our agreement ?
WWII was brought up as an example. If you don't understand what an example is, then go back to school !
Regards - Steve
Cheekybuggers
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Tue, 10 June 2003 06:33 |
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| Nexus One |
| Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: December 2002
Location: Szczecin, Poland | |
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Gentlemen,
We spent almost 6 months together playing and having fun, and now things are going wrong way. I believe there is no reason to start such smear campaigns right now, when we are approaching (or maybe reached  ) game's end. If somebody is not willing to play any longer, let it be, the rest should still have fun if they will. 
And a few words about backstabbing:
Did I call Hirota or Luap backstabbers when they attacked me, respectively in 20' and 60'? No! Why? Because we were neither allied, nor had a peace-treaty or non-aggression pact. What is a peace-treaty then for, if not to put more trust in relations? Why bother to cancel it and wait several years before attacking instead of making a surprising punch, when still one can be called a backstabber?
OK, one can say that somebody backstabbed, but if one did not bother to fix an appropriate treaty or simply ignored a potential thread, so who is to blame for that?
It might look like Nexus is taking his ally, Cheekybugger' side in this discussion, but try to look at it in objective way, completely apart from the current situation.
It was said:
"2. Never believe anything anyone says!"
Who said we (our characters) are obliged to tell truth and only the truth. And in the real world do you believe in everything what diplomats, politicians, presidents are saying is true? Of course, not! One should use his/her own brains to figure out what is said to gain money, popularity, trust etc. I learn that this game is more about politics than anything else.
I mentioned it already in some post before, but it is pretty important to distinguish between a character and a player. (BTW, Seth opened quite interesting discussion about role-playing in the Bar).
Regards,
Feliks
Check out my new program S!RP (test version)!
ftp://library.southern.edu/starsreportsprocessor.zip
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Tue, 10 June 2003 15:29 |
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OK, I reread my post and it did sound kinda offensive.
I meant to only point out that you can not assume a player will control his race in a game the same way that person may act in real life.
I realize that role playing is part of the game, and that the nicest person on earth, may aspire to be the most vile and wicked race in games.
I use the term back-stabbed because regardless of formal alliances treaties, whatever, I was told on every occasion I asked that the CheekyBuggers were not allied with Nexus and that he had no real intentions of attacking me to kill me.
Then A WH appears and in comes a cloaked fleet using Nexus provided chaff to attack me. I consider that backstabbing. No wrong done on the CheekyBuggers part. Thats how you win right? Oh wait they don't want to win... 
Never Ally: My opinion:
Alliances weaken the game, especially if no one wants to fight each other late in the game.
The Altoids and I cooperated in many ways during this game, and early on while we were both inexperianced and assumed we would be #1 and #2, we were careful not to allow too much of our strategies and racial traits to be shared as we both knew that we would have to fight each other at some point.
I am only bitter because I lost  I do not hold anything against any players. Thats how the game is played. I was new, and did not know what to expect. Alliances and diplomacy and a nice twist to the game, but I think I will remain on my own from now on. maybe duels? I just dont like the feeling I get after being lied to, even when it is a game 
And as far as anyone wondering about the Luap attacks on Ygrini and Weaderulium... well I will post a nice little narrative of the Luap exploits when game is officially over. But I can guarantee that we only attacked Passy after we were attacked first, and that MG was sent many, many notices that I would attack if he did not reply or explain his actions.
Regards.
The Luap (Paul)
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Tue, 10 June 2003 16:28 |
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Greetings:
My oh my you guys can get into some conversations!!! 
Many thanks to Blue Turbit who was watching over you while I took a long weekend at a rock concert/camping combination...try two kids and 6 heavy suitcases/backpacks with 3 switches on a Holland train... good for the soul every once in a while
Regarding the game:
Feliks is right.. You've been playing together for a long time...You all are a good bunch of people!
and.... its a shame to let things all fall apart because of a qualifyer...
I apologize for the confusion with the Sky Harbor games. Let me tell ya what happened
I had planned for one game. Sky Harbor, we had 4 players already... but when we advertised, we got way more than than expected, enough for two more games. Well, I'm a sucker to turn away anybody that wants to play, and its not that difficult to host a game...  In my recent game, Galaxy, we also had the overflow of players, and ended up with a championship game, which has proved to be very fun... so i thought it would be fun for you guys too... something to look forward to.
I certainly didn't intend for it to spoil the game...
It was a shame that Passy left, then MG, then James...
I talk to 4 of you regularly, so I can say that I know what is going on.. as well as can be expected
I do see this game turning into a manipulation of score in direct relation to the championship game..
So, because of this, i've decided, all 5 of the remaining players will make it into the Championship game.. this is cool because it will make a 10-player game and I will draw up the rules so there won't be any questions later on...
Sky Harbor 3 is still going strong, 50 years to go...
It will be a "no allied victory" so, don't get too cozy with your neighbor..
Hopefully you will play on, build some new ships and get some more experience in while you can.... This is totally up to you.
Kind regards,
 Ashlyn
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Tue, 10 June 2003 22:13 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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So Paul, when are you going to admit then, that by your own definition of backstabbing (not mine), that you did lawlessly attack the Ygrinni without provocation.
You sent some destroyers to where the Ygrinni had an orbital fort (so it wasn't even for refuelling purposes), that I assume you thought was undefended and were subsequently defeated. In itself I have no problem with that, but then throughout the game you tried to perpetuate the myth that the Ygrinni attacked you.
Is that a lie ?
And have you then continued to lie about this for the entire game ?
Are you in fact an honest and trustworthy person ?
The one and only reason this is all being brought up is because of your habit of accusing others of lying in character.
If I told you everything I intended to do then it wouldn't be good strategy would it ? When you and Seth keep asking what the Cheekybuggers are doing, what are our plans, whom do we want to attack, then can you honestly expect me to tell you all about everything ?
Please note that when I attacked you in the general vicinity of your HW, I didn't intend for a long time (if at all), to attack you elsewhere. The whole idea of that, was for you to attack the old fleet and tie up valuable resources so that Nexus could more easily defeat you.
At the time, I was far more interested in getting better tech levels and didn't intend on doing any more building until I got to Nubians. Your counterattacks on my weaker worlds, by bombing and packeting, ensured that I change my strategy.
You forced me to massively build up my fleets.
Now again I have no problem with that. You were quite entitled to attack any of my worlds that you liked, but what I'm saying is that you shouldn't then complain about it when you start to lose.
Paul and Seth seem to think that I don't want to win. I repeat this for the record. I would in fact like to win but I'm not prepared to help my enemies defeat my long term ally.
I hope this time that my statement this time is clear enough for you guys to understand !
Everyone should well note that I referred to both Paul and Seth as enemies even though the Cheekybuggers are only at war with the Luap's.
The Altoids are a long time friend of the Luap's and Seth has constantly throughout the game flamed me on a personal level. I've been very tolerant and tried my best to be friendly (on a personal level) towards him, but he persists with these character assasinations.
And you guys expect me to support you in your war against Nexus!
Perhaps you could both do to learn a few diplomacy skills, especially you Seth !
Regards - Steve
Cheekybuggers
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Wed, 11 June 2003 01:53 |
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Ok Ok Already,
Perhaps I am screwing this up.
Let me change my tone. What I should be saying, rather using the word lying, is counterintelligence?.
Yes it sucks for me, I was duped and am now losing. I am bitter, but thats OK there can only be one winner.
I am not trying to flame anybody or hurt anyones feelings.
I think it makes no sense to continue playing a game that I can have no effect on. I was offered either to quit or to surrender. I was told that I was preferred as the 4th place player and could qualify for championship that way, but must surrender to the Nexus, Cheeky, YapYap alliance. So that they could gang up on Seth and eliminate him. There were no intentions of ever attempting to attack the Nexus, so I decided to propose (in Forum) that the game be ended to see If anyone would protest and say they wanted to challenge the leader Nexus.
And from the winded responses I only concluded I was right and see no reason to continue, especially just to help the alliance that I now think has a personal vendetta against Seth.
I still believe that for me, alliances I will avoid.
To Steve
......? I can say nothing, but advise you to look up your name in the various Stars! forums and see how many of your threads tend to migrate towards name calling and flaming. Just a coincidence?
Again I would love to have a discussion about everyones strategy and game objectives (many similar posts follow other game endings) And I will include a detailed account of the Luap exploits. But I must warn you that not many surprises await.
So please lets not continue the personal attacks,
If I have offended anyone in my posts I am sorry.
Regards
Paul
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Wed, 11 June 2003 02:36 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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Hello Paul,
Yes the tone of your last email was a lot better. Thankfully for that. We're supposed to be playing a game and I think that you two guys are taking it far too seriously.
You said:
" To Steve
......? I can say nothing, but advise you to look up your name in the various Stars! forums and see how many of your threads tend to migrate towards name calling and flaming. Just a coincidence? "
No definately not a coincidence. If you flame me, mostly I will respond in kind. If you flame my race "the Cheekybuggers" and keep it in character then I have no problem with that.
I would then flame your race back, in character and to the best of my ability, that's part of the game and can be good fun.
You two guys chose to make it personal, which it shouldn't be.
All I can ask, is that you keep it about the game and keep it non-personal. That's fair enough I think !
Regards - Steve
Cheekybuggers
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Wed, 11 June 2003 02:49 |
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| Steve1 wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 19:13 |
Paul and Seth seem to think that I don't want to win. I repeat this for the record. I would in fact like to win but I'm not prepared to help my enemies defeat my long term ally.
I hope this time that my statement this time is clear enough for you guys to understand !
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I'm not asking you to help me, your enemy(?). If you read my post you would have seen that I said that there wasn't much point in playing until 2520 since the number one player would likely not change from now until then as long as the diplomatic situation remained as it is (i.e. #1 is part of a practically unbeatable alliance). If you think you can win by staying allied, then go for it. I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm just saying there are only 30 some turns left. Do you honestly think you can win if you continue your current course of action? If you do, then keep doing what you're doing. If not, then try and realize you're not playing to win.
| Steve1 wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 19:13 |
The Altoids are a long time friend of the Luap's and Seth has constantly throughout the game flamed me on a personal level. I've been very tolerant and tried my best to be friendly (on a personal level) towards him, but he persists with these character assasinations.
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I'm sorry that you feel this has gotten personal. It wasn't intended to be personal. I hardly think that I have flamed you throughout the game. I would appreciate some specific examples so that I can learn from them and not repeat my mistakes in the future.
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| Re: Is this the end? |
Wed, 11 June 2003 05:37 |
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| Nexus One |
| Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: December 2002
Location: Szczecin, Poland | |
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| OOMatter wrote on Wed, 11 June 2003 00:20 |
Just a quick thought on diplomacy. So called formal agreements (alliances, NAPs, etc.) are no more or less real then anything else you communicate in the context of the game. There's nobody enforcing the "law" it's all based on your honor.
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I would disagree with that point of view on formal agreements.
I read somewhere in the forum that a good Stars! player is a paranoid player (i.e. trust no one). And there are several degrees of paranoia. The lightest one is when you are allied with someone, then second lightest is when you have a formal peace-treaty/NAP etc. In no situation you are released from obligation of being cautionous, suspicious and careful in consideration of other's words.
Formal agreement are in real life, courtiers all over the world have such agreements and there is no any higher power (well, depending on beliefs here and there ) to make them observe the rules which are stated in such agreements, but anyway they are signed for some reasons. One of this is so called world public opinion, another are UN sanctions, and there is also a psycholigal aspect.
Stars! games are played in different environments and there is nothing like United Species , but there is still a public (player's) opinion. I am a newbie as most of us, but I am sure that formal agreements are less likely to be broken, having in mind that offender will be remembered by his/her deeds.
Lying or counterintelligence (nice euphemism BTW ) is part of politics and diplomacy. Take Watergate as real life example (now in Poland we have similar corruption-media scandal, where our prime minister and many high members of the ruling party are involved). Take D-day invasion and counterintelligence made by the Allies (about place of invasion), take Pearl Harbor and Japanese misinformation on fleet movements (well, that is based on the movie I saw recently).
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If you flat out lie about something and the other person finds out, then all of your communications are to them are worthless because anything you say could be a lie.
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It's a radical stance. Note that your relation with the player can change during the game. All should be assessed in the context of current situation.
And finally, are you blaming SS race of being sneaky? Come on, it's like expecting WM of being a peace-loving.
Regards,
Feliks
PS. When is the next genaration? Is it really on Thursday?
Check out my new program S!RP (test version)!
ftp://library.southern.edu/starsreportsprocessor.zip
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