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Minefields Fri, 06 June 2003 03:48 Go to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA
I don't see any reason to use the speed trap minefield. I'd rather have the enemy hit my standard minefield, take damage and stop. The speed trap minelayers are more expensive, more bulky, less efficient (less mines laid) and have a greater chance of stopping a fleet exceeding warp 6 than does a standard minefield (stopping the fleet but preventing any damage). So what is the point? What are they good for? What am I missing here?


I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Minefields Fri, 06 June 2003 07:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 403
Registered: November 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

zoid wrote on Fri, 06 June 2003 03:48

I don't see any reason to use the speed trap minefield. I'd rather have the enemy hit my standard minefield, take damage and stop. The speed trap minelayers are more expensive, more bulky, less efficient (less mines laid) and have a greater chance of stopping a fleet exceeding warp 6 than does a standard minefield (stopping the fleet but preventing any damage). So what is the point? What are they good for? What am I missing here?


If the goal of mine fields are to damage the enemy, nothing.

If the goal of mine fields are to obstruct their movements by either slowing them, causing them considerable effort to sweep, or channel their attacks towards predictable targets then the speed trap is fairly effective due to it's low top speed.

I take it by your statement that the heavy mine is your favorite? Easy to lay, and does mucho damage when struck?

- Kurt

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Re: Minefields Fri, 06 June 2003 07:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2003
Location: Kentucky

Speedtrap minefields are very difficult to clear and they add another layer of mines that you can use to protect your space.

Paladin my 2 cents



"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: Minefields Fri, 06 June 2003 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land
Hmmm. I have neither manual nor game in front of me at the moment, but don't you stand a better chance of actually hitting the speed trap vs. the regular?

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: Minefields Fri, 06 June 2003 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA
I much prefer the SB to the Standard mines. Mines don't really do damage, unless someone makes a mistake, and from the midgame on they won't even do significant damage to capital ships. IMO the purpose of minefields is to buy time and to channel the enemy.* For these purposes the SB is the superior mine as it is harder to clear and stops the enemies fleets more quickly due to its high hit percentage.

*If you are an SD all this changes of course.

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Re: Minefields Fri, 06 June 2003 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Crusader is currently offline Crusader

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land
Yes, indeed! The one time I played a SD in a game, I did very well. It can be a MM nightmare, but a lot of fun to play if you are doing well.

The Crusader Angel



Nothing for now.

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Re: Minefields Sat, 07 June 2003 11:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

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Crusader wrote on Fri, 06 June 2003 11:19

Hmmm. I have neither manual nor game in front of me at the moment, but don't you stand a better chance of actually hitting the speed trap vs. the regular?

Respectfully,
The Crusader Angel


Speed Trap

Regular Mines
Max safe speed warp 5
Probability of hitting one: 0.3% per light year traveled for each warp over the safe speed.
Example: A fleet traveling Warp 9 has a 1.5% chance per light year traveled in a turn. Traveling 10 light years through the minefield that turn, the fleet has a 10.5% chance of triggering a mine.

Maximum safe speed: Warp 5
Probability of hitting one: 3% per light year traveled for each warp over the safe speed.
Example: A fleet traveling Warp 9 has a 15% chance per light year traveled in a turn. Traveling 10 light years through the minefield that turn, the fleet is going to trigger a mine.

Speed trap is 10 times more effective.

Paladin






"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: Minefields Sat, 07 June 2003 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
Mines are not multiplicative, it checks each ly traveled.

Regular Mines
Max safe speed warp 4
Probability of hitting one: 0.3% per light year traveled for each warp over the safe speed.
Example: A fleet traveling Warp 9 has a 1.5% chance per light year traveled in a turn. Traveling 10 light years through the minefield that turn, the fleet has a 1-.985^10, or 14% chance of triggering a mine.

Speed Trap Mines
Maximum safe speed: Warp 5
Probability of hitting one: 3% per light year traveled for each warp over the safe speed.
Example: A fleet traveling Warp 9 has a 12% chance per light year traveled in a turn. Traveling 10 light years through the minefield that turn, the fleet has a 1-.88^10, or 72% chance of triggering a mine.

Speed traps are much more likely to stop the enemy fleet. Which is usually the main benifit of mines.



- LEit

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Re: Minefields Sat, 07 June 2003 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA
All I know is that when an AI escort is after a ship I don't want killed and can't defend, the AI-IS players speed bump minefields are a lifesaver. I run into those full speed, enemy chases, and we always get stopped at different locations. Smile

Okay, I've got it now. Main benefit of minefields is slowing or stopping a fleet, and speed bumps do it better.

Thanks guys.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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3% or 3.5% Tue, 17 June 2003 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nexus One is currently offline Nexus One

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 75
Registered: December 2002
Location: Szczecin, Poland
LEit wrote on Sat, 07 June 2003 19:53



Speed Trap Mines
Maximum safe speed: Warp 5
Probability of hitting one: 3% per light year traveled for each warp over the safe speed.
Example: A fleet traveling Warp 9 has a 12% chance per light year traveled in a turn. Traveling 10 light years through the minefield that turn, the fleet has a 1-.88^10, or 72% chance of triggering a mine.





Hmm... 3% or 3.5%? If you check a speed bump mine field in game (by right-clicking on a minefield square) you get:

"Chance/l.y. of a hit: 3.5%"

And I believe 3.5% it also mentioned in the manual (paper book, not in F1 help file).

According to this at warp9 you have 14% per each l.y. to trigger a mine.

And yes they are planet-savers; speed traps can give you 100% guaranty that your opponent would not raid your planet in one turn if you have a decent minefield (speed trap) around it and enemy fleet is still at some good distance (at least 26 l.y away). Note that you can't crashsweep it with chaff, they won't blow and trigger other mines.

Regards,
Feliks




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Re: Minefields Tue, 17 June 2003 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

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It's not impossible.

I've had a ship manage warp 9 for 23ly through speed bumps before... (a record? It certainly shocked me)

OK it was one ship out of the 300 that tried to make it...

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Re: Minefields Tue, 17 June 2003 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2003
Location: Kentucky

The odds would have been very high against it but not zero.


"There is no substitute for Integrity"

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Re: 3% or 3.5% Tue, 17 June 2003 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
Nexus One wrote on Tue, 17 June 2003 10:49

And yes they are planet-savers; speed traps can give you 100% guaranty that your opponent would not raid your planet in one turn if you have a decent minefield (speed trap) around it and enemy fleet is still at some good distance (at least 26 l.y away). Note that you can't crashsweep it with chaff, they won't blow and trigger other mines.



It is not 100% as some one else mentioned. Chance is checked each ly of travel, so even at warp 10 you only have a 17.5% chance of hitting a speed trap mine per ly. (You are correct, it is 3.5%)

Also note that the speed you set doesn't matter, what matters is how far you travel, so if you order your fleet to go warp 8 for 25ly, it will count as going warp 5 for hitting mine fields (and only for hitting mine fields, fuel, display, and CE check use set speed).

You can chaff sweep a speed trap field, I've just tested it. Because the chance of hitting is so high you don't need as many fleets either. The hardest thing about it is collecting all the ships that hit back into a fleet the following year, normally the chaff dies...



- LEit

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Re: 3% or 3.5% Wed, 18 June 2003 01:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ASword is currently offline ASword

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

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[quote title=LEit wrote on Tue, 17 June 2003 18:10]
Nexus One wrote on Tue, 17 June 2003 10:49

You can chaff sweep a speed trap field, I've just tested it. Because the chance of hitting is so high you don't need as many fleets either. The hardest thing about it is collecting all the ships that hit back into a fleet the following year, normally the chaff dies...


Collecting them is not a problem since their orders will still be set so they'll all arrive a turn later (unless the field is truly huge Very Happy ).

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Re: 3% or 3.5% Wed, 18 June 2003 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nexus One is currently offline Nexus One

 
Chief Petty Officer

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Location: Szczecin, Poland
LEit wrote on Wed, 18 June 2003 03:10



It is not 100% as some one else mentioned. Chance is checked each ly of travel, so even at warp 10 you only have a 17.5% chance of hitting a speed trap mine per ly. (You are correct, it is 3.5%)

Also note that the speed you set doesn't matter, what matters is how far you travel, so if you order your fleet to go warp 8 for 25ly, it will count as going warp 5 for hitting mine fields (and only for hitting mine fields, fuel, display, and CE check use set speed).

You can chaff sweep a speed trap field, I've just tested it. Because the chance of hitting is so high you don't need as many fleets either. The hardest thing about it is collecting all the ships that hit back into a fleet the following year, normally the chaff dies...



Geeez, Embarassed

It looks like I was very wrong about speed mine (especialy that I had so much trust in them in games I pleayed).

Sorry for misleading anyone. Wall Bash

... and thanks for correcting the things.

Still I think they are good protection from a sudden attack, but not that good as I though before.

Regards,
Feliks



Check out my new program S!RP (test version)!
ftp://library.southern.edu/starsreportsprocessor.zip
More information in the Bar.

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Re: 3% or 3.5% Tue, 09 September 2003 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
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Location: Dortmund, Germany
Hm....

I remember some Jason Cawley article that the effect of minefields is additive, not multiplicative. Or in other words:
it is _not_ checked per lightyear! It is checked per whole distance.
Or still in other words:
The chance to hit a minefield can be >100%, so the chance to pass a minefield equals zero if the field is large enough.

I know the spreadsheets calculate it per turn, but I am pretty sure Jason said it is calculated differently, and in most cases he is correct Cool

So... I would say it is chance*warps2fast*ly, and if that is say
3.5% * 4 warps2fast * 10 ly then it is 140% which means you hit in any case.
it is not (100-14)^10 to pass undamaged...

Just something that came to my mind from some old readings, maybe it changed with some patches?

Robert



2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: 3% or 3.5% Tue, 09 September 2003 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
here it is: Very Happy

Quote:


ZooltaR wrote:
>
> I'm trying to get one SD (Hi Ward!) off my back. He laid several nice
> heavy minefields in my space, with minelayers nested iside. Attempt to
> sweep them "slowly and carefully" will probably result in a minefield
> blasting and the layers moving somewhere else. Thinking about possible
> solutions, I came to the following idea:
>
> Build several cheap destroyers with good firepower and sweeping
> capability. Send 6 of them to the minelayers at Warp 8 (minelayers are
> 60,51 ly away - so no warning for the SD) AS SEPARATE FLEETS. Speed is 2
> "warps" higher than safe, so each of them has 2% chance per ly travelled
> that it hits the mine. In other words, chances it will arrive undamaged
> are .98^60, or 0.2916025.

Nope. Not how it works. The chance of hitting a mine is not checked
seperately for each LY traveled. It is directly additive for each LY
traveled. The chance can go to 100% or more, in which case a hit is
certain (in this case, and warp 8 anything over 50 LY means an automatic
hit). As the help file notes at one point "you *will* hit a mine",
discussing how the percentages add.

But then how come I sometimes go some distance into them and sometimes
another? - might be the rejoinder. This I only gather from testing, and
is not in the help - apparently a "roll" is made for the hit chance, and
the ship goes until the roll is exceeded by the mine hit chance or until
it gets out of the field or completes movement.

So, again, the hit chance doesn't multiply, it *adds*. Which is much
worse. It means the SD can guareentee non-intercept, for example, by
staying far enough away through enough of the right type of mines.

As some one else noted, this is one nice use of speed traps for SD - a
small field near the minelayer will stop anyone going fast enough to
reach the layer. Though they are heavy enough that they will be less
well represented i
...




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Re: 3% or 3.5% Tue, 09 September 2003 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
This is not true, mine fields do not add the chances, they multiply.

I just sent 10 ships 29.00 ly at warp 6 through a speed trap field. 3 of them made it, including the first of the 10.

If mine fields added the chance per ly, it would have a 3.5% * 1 per ly, which would be a 101.5% chance of hitting a mine. If it is checked each ly it has a 64.4% of hitting a mine. Since it was able to go that far, it obviously isn't 101.5%...

3 making it is pretty much what you would expect, slightly unlucky, but not too unreasonable.

Other interesting things I found in this test:
You check for mines before you move each ly, so in this test there was one ship that didn't move becuase it hit a field immediatly.
One of the ships hit a mine at the same location as a world, the ship got killed in the battle.



- LEit

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Chaff Sweeping Tue, 09 September 2003 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
ASword wrote on Wed, 18 June 2003 01:58

Collecting them is not a problem since their orders will still be set so they'll all arrive a turn later (unless the field is truly huge Very Happy ).



I generally target them at a point in space, for three reasons:

1) Speed for mine field impacts is not what you order, but instead the minimum speed needed to cover the distance (note that this does not apply to fuel used however). So you need to send them at least 82ly if you want them to truly go warp 10. (To test this, send a large number of fleets 16ly at warp 10 through a field, they'll all get through).

2) Odds of hitting go up with the amount of mine field you travel through, so going past your target increases the odds of hitting a mine, and therefore means you need to dedicate fewer fleets to chaff sweeping.

3) Battles are very annoying to look at with 100's of chaff in individual fleets cluttering them up...

I tend to gather the surviving chaff into a fleet and send it somewhere, typicly the world I just hit. If they're spread all over the place, I can either let them continue, or give individual orders to each one.



- LEit

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Re: 3% or 3.5% Wed, 10 September 2003 02:47 Go to previous message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Quote:


This is not true, mine fields do not add the chances, they multiply.

I just sent 10 ships 29.00 ly at warp 6 through a speed trap field. 3 of them made it, including the first of the 10.

If mine fields added the chance per ly, it would have a 3.5% * 1 per ly, which would be a 101.5% chance of hitting a mine. If it is checked each ly it has a 64.4% of hitting a mine. Since it was able to go that far, it obviously isn't 101.5%...

3 making it is pretty much what you would expect, slightly unlucky, but not too unreasonable.

Other interesting things I found in this test:
You check for mines before you move each ly, so in this test there was one ship that didn't move becuase it hit a field immediatly.
One of the ships hit a mine at the same location as a world, the ship got killed in the battle.

- LEit





then it is again one jason cawley article run out of date.
i am sure he was right the time he wrote it, maybe this has been changed by some of the patches? and in times of chaff sweeping who cares anyway...

thanks for setting this right

robert



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