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Playing two races in one game? Tue, 12 March 2013 21:27 Go to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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The Game: Lowtek

Rules:
Game setup:
- Large Normal
- Distant starting positions
- No AccBBS
- No PPS
- Random events on
- Slow tech

Racial restrictions:
- JoAT (100) and CA (200) take (points) penalties - to be set to defences (unless penalty exceeded by 50 points)
- Weapons tech must be expensive
- No pre-game alliances

Playing rules:
- "Kill Starbase" battle order is banned
- Standard cheat disclaimer:
- - Split fleet/chaff/heal after gate all allowed
- - Min damage not allowed
- - - No building* alpha/beta ships after 2450, or your race has jihad tech. whichever is earlier
- - - To start a second torpedo slot on a SB the first slot must be full
* You don't have to scrap what you already have

Communications:
- In game meeting before communications allowed
- Victory conditions have not been discussed either, so we will use the 2 player victory condition common to most stars games.

The facts as I now know them.

In about 2439 one player decided to quit playing, he gave his race and upload password to his ally and with the OK of the host played both turns.

In about 2457 a new player took over for the lost player.

None of this was made known to the other players in the game until after the new player took over. We did not know of the alliance or that One player was playing two races.

My question for the bar is:

Don't I as a player have the right to know who I'm playing against?

There are a lot of side issues that the players will bring up. But for me it's about TRUST! I'm I playing on a level field?
















[Updated on: Tue, 12 March 2013 21:28]

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Tue, 12 March 2013 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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For clarity, the reason my ally was not disclosed to be playing my race was because our alliance wasn't public knowledge (though it was disclosed to the host).

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Tue, 12 March 2013 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 12 March 2013 21:36
For clarity, the reason my ally was not disclosed to be playing my race was because our alliance wasn't public knowledge (though it was disclosed to the host).


If you read my post you will see that I did point that out.

Quote:
We did not know of the alliance or that One player was playing two races.


*ps, why do I waste my breath?

Edit:Thank you, for supporting my point.


[Updated on: Tue, 12 March 2013 21:40]

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Tue, 12 March 2013 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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As I said, it was for clarity. You stated that you didn't know we were allied, and that you didn't know that my ally was playing my turns, but you didn't mention the connection between the two.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Tue, 12 March 2013 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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I've said everything I needed to in support of XapBob, in the sub forum thread.
Edit - slight correction in eddie's narrative, which is incorrect in its basic description.
Magic did not quit the game in 2441, with the intent of not wanting to come back again.
He would have come back once RL issues were resolved. The situation still holds true.

A very short summary is:
Team victory is allowed.
Magicmushroom and XapBob allied as end-game allies in 2417.
Magic faced RL problems so bob played on behalf of magic, for 15 odd years, which would be around the average time cycle expected for the RL issue to have been resolved, from 2441 to 2456/57.
(Having seen the files, no race gutting or pumping took place during said period.)
After it was became evident that magic was unable to come back for a longer time, a replacement was found.


Basically, from what I understand, littleeddie is saying he doesn't trust XapBob.
Not sure how that matters as they are at war and have been with no agreement between them in the past 40 years, if not longer.
In said war, Magicmushroom or his fleets did not provide major help... XapBob might detail any minor help recd, if so reqd.

Also not sure what exactly littleeddie is looking for here... as arguably, he never was playing against Magicmushroom's race, so to speak.
Thus there was no in-game dynamic shift / psychological impact that changed from 2417-2440 or 2441-2556.

Is he looking for confirmation, punishment or does he just want to have a general discussion, ignoring specific game conditions in this case....?




[Updated on: Tue, 12 March 2013 23:05]




I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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See, it's a million words without answering the question?

Quote:

My question for the bar is:

Don't I as a player have the right to know who I'm playing against?

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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So you mean a player should reveal secret alliances to other players, when they are taking over a race TEMPORARILY?

Or if a player is housekeeping an ally's turn for a week, while said ally has gone on a business trip / vacation, the player should tell others?
So that other players know how close the 2 players are working? That they are working that closely, that they are sharing files and passwords?

You really like your world in black and white, Eddie.

Let's talk SPECIFICS. Not generally.
Was THIS situation a problem in ANY way?



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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See, it's a million words without answering the question?

Quote:

My question for the bar is:

Don't I as a player have the right to know who I'm playing against?

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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No.

Certainly not in the case of a temporary takeover (which initially was only due to be a couple of turns) by an ally when the alliance is unknown to the rest of the universe (and had been for decades).

When the timescale impacted another game (else the conversations with nmid would never have happened) nmid offered to take a look and help me out with the turn. This was cleared by the original race owner and the host as well as being announced in game.

As a point of fact: There has been no "decision to quit" at any point.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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This is not a team game, I don't know why you all keep trying to make it into one? (well, I do know why).

When a player can't do his turn he can ask for a Hold or some other relief. But it is done in the open so everyone knows what's going on.

This was done behind closed doors, out of view of the other 8 players for at least 20 turns.

I find it totally unacceptable.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 20:20
This is not a team game
(snip)


Hmmm, so the game doesn't have a 2 player victory condition?
You might not want to play as a team, but others are most definitely going to.

Hell, last I checked there was a tri-alliance in the very same game.
It also has brothers playing who are actively trading + allied with each other.
I'm amazed no one has a problem with that.

Anyway, before I'm accused of going OT, I'll restate
Nmid

Hmmm, so the game doesn't have a 2 player victory condition?
You might not want to play as a team, but others are most definitely going to.

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------
LittleEddie asked on Wed, 13 March 2013 20:20
But it is done in the open so everyone knows what's going on.

This was done behind closed doors, out of view of the other 8 players for at least 20 turns.

XapBob replied in the previous post to the question

No.

Certainly not in the case of a temporary takeover (which initially was only due to be a couple of turns) by an ally when the alliance is unknown to the rest of the universe (and had been for decades).


Using LittleEddie's own post to explain something to him, in his language.. slight grammar corrections

If you read (THE PREVIOUS) post you will see that (THIS WAS) point(ED) out.
(snip)
*ps, why do I waste my breath?


And finally...
nmid asks

Let's talk SPECIFICS. Not generally.
Was THIS situation a problem in ANY way?


[Updated on: Wed, 13 March 2013 12:32]




I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 13:33
Don't I as a player have the right to know who I'm playing against?

That's a very old question, actually. And the usual answer is "no". Rolling Eyes

Even here in SAH, some games/Hosts arrange for players' true identities and/or emails to be unknown. Shocked

As for the other issue, yes, it's not so uncommon for players to ask their friends or allies for help, always in the understanding that it's temporary and no "funny business" will happen.

Replacement by unknown players isn't that much better, as many replacements have trouble unearthing/maintaining the Diplomatic relationships, the econ, and even the race's basic workings.

The interesting side question would be what would you have done differently if you had known what was happening "behind the screens"? Sherlock



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 02:27
We did not know of the alliance or that One player was playing two races.

Another interesting question would be: did the game change in any significant way while that was happening? New wars? Weird expansion patterns? New Alliances? Some1 getting too weak or too strong? Any Diplomatic talks suddenly gone wrong? Sherlock

And, were those changes worse than, say, a dropout, or a few weeks of Game on Hold?



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Wed, 13 March 2013 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 15:50
When a player can't do his turn he can ask for a Hold or some other relief...

... or do a lot of other things, including quitting. Shocked

And no, it's rarely done "in the open". Even replacements are usually sought "in secret", for obvious reasons. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
I find it totally unacceptable.

Tell the game's Host, then. (S)He'll take what corrective measures are needed. Whip



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Thu, 14 March 2013 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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I now find that this should have been fixed back on the 4th of January as we where coming off of a Christmas hold, you can read about it at

http://starsautohost.org/sahforum2/index.php?t=msg&th=52 36&start=0&rid=1480

Scroll down to the first post on 4 January and read down to the end of the page. The question was asked if Magic9mushroom was around, No answer was given by XAPBob or Magic.

The other 8 players where left to assume that Magic was playing his turn when his turn was uploaded.

I believe this has now crossed the line for me, I await the answer of the host.

Little Eddie


[Updated on: Thu, 14 March 2013 19:27]

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Thu, 14 March 2013 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 15 March 2013 10:26
I believe this has now crossed the line for me, I await the answer of the host.

Little Eddie


You are aware of how hilarious this sounds, right?

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Thu, 14 March 2013 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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As my English is obviously lacking meaning...
m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 13 March 2013 23:09

The interesting side question would be what would you have done differently if you had known what was happening "behind the screens"? Sherlock


I understand that he wanted to know, but after having Magicmushroom/Bob explain the situation (Re: Alliance not general knowledge, no pumping or race gutting, no advantage given or taken during war between Bob/LittleEddie etc etc), LittleEddie is still bringing this up again and again.
I just want to know what he wants done with it?

I'm sure when Sprocket gets back on the weekend as he said in his group email (on account of exams/flu), even he would ask LittleEddie the same question.

Without specifying a problem ... fluctuating between specific instances vs general situations, it's all a horrible waste of time and effort.



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Thu, 14 March 2013 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

The three of you are posting 6 post to every one of mine, your using close to 10 words to one of my words.

That doesn't make you right.

Your only thinking about this game, I'm thinking about Stars! & AutoHost.

Magic is posting about this game, but hasn't played a turn in the last 30 or more. WHY.

In the next game I'm just going to be one half of all the players, Nmid knows I can play in 6 different games at the same time. So I should just play 5 players in the same game. That should be fair(by your definition).

Please think about the next game you want to play.

Little Eddie





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Re: Playing two races in one game? Thu, 14 March 2013 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Integrity can be regarded as the opposite of hypocrisy,[1] in that integrity regards internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Thu, 14 March 2013 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 15 March 2013 07:18
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

The three of you are posting 6 post to every one of mine, your using close to 10 words to one of my words.

That doesn't make you right.

Your only thinking about this game, I'm thinking about Stars! & AutoHost.

Magic is posting about this game, but hasn't played a turn in the last 30 or more. WHY.

In the next game I'm just going to be one half of all the players, Nmid knows I can play in 6 different games at the same time. So I should just play 5 players in the same game. That should be fair(by your definition).

Please think about the next game you want to play.

Little Eddie







Ed.
Listen carefully.
I have liked my games I have played against you, I really have.
You have a unique play style that is quite a change to play against.
That's why I always make the effort to reach out to you, which ever game I play where you are also present.

But decide what the problem is here.
If you are talking generally, then I don't care. I can let the community answer you... and I'll possibly be in the line supporting you. Yes. I might.

But when you are raising fingers against Bob/Mushroom in the specific circumstances that occurred in lowtech, then I'll tell you that you are not looking at the whole darn picture.
Stop looking at it in black and white.

You want to talk about the text book definiation of integrity? Ok.
Tell me who took an undue advantage here?
Bob or Magic?

I wasn't even in the picture, but when I took over, I sent out emails and in-game messages.
I'm telling you that when I took over, Bob had not mis-used the shofixti race.
If he wanted to, he could have ended the war or really pumped his race up.

If you want, once this game is over... (because you aren't ready to listen to me saying so, nor will you listen to sprocket), you can have a look at the game files and see for yourself.

Just chill, Eddie.... think about it and let me know man.


[Updated on: Thu, 14 March 2013 23:05]




I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Fri, 15 March 2013 04:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 15 March 2013 00:26
The question was asked if Magic9mushroom was around, No answer was given by XAPBob or Magic.

Very few answers were given, and from what I read most players seemed understandably unhappy about his race becoming inactive. Also, the possibility that one Ally took over was mentioned with only token opposition.

You seem to deny/ignore the very usual custom of handing over inactive races to allies. There's very good reasons and tons of precedence for that. Accept it as better than most alternatives and play on.



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Re: Playing two races in one game? Fri, 15 March 2013 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 15 March 2013 02:48
The three of you are posting 6 post to every one of mine

Now you're exaggerating, though that happens in a lot of threads. Just take a peek at old r.g.c.s. Very Happy


Quote:
your using close to 10 words to one of my words.

That's because you're not answering the questions we're asking. Sherlock Which makes you guilty of that particular complaint. Poke


Quote:
That doesn't make you right.

No. *I* make me right. You're making yourself... noobish? Rolling Eyes


Quote:
Your only thinking about this game, I'm thinking about Stars! & AutoHost.

Actually, it's just the opposite. Read the thread from the start and see why. Pretty please. Lurking


Quote:
I should just play 5 players in the same game. That should be fair(by your definition).

Not by a long shot, because:
a) it's not temporary
b) it solves no dropout problem
c) breaks the usual "no pre-game alliances" rule.
d) almost guarantees "funny business" will happen. Shame


Quote:
Please think about the next game you want to play.

Certainly not one where its Host thinks the opposite of me about important matters! Hit over head


[Updated on: Fri, 15 March 2013 04:56]

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Fri, 15 March 2013 05:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 15 March 2013 02:59
Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Integrity can be regarded as the opposite of hypocrisy,[1] in that integrity regards internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs.

Heal thyself!! Laughing



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In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Fri, 15 March 2013 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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The more I find out about this the more I don't like it.

Back to my point.

If back in Dec, or in early January we where told that Magic9mushroom was no longer playing and his ally was temporary playing this turn. We would not be having this thread.

You can have all the "good" reasons that you want for hiding that information. My point is that it was hidden and I don't believe it should have been given the rules of this game.

"Did it effect me in this game". I don't know, as I don't know what XAPBob did that was different then what Magic9mushroom would have done. And I have no way of ever finding out.

I no longer believe that this game has been played on a fair and level playing field for all the players. As one player had information that was hidden from the others.

Little Eddie

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Re: Playing two races in one game? Fri, 15 March 2013 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
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LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 15 March 2013 09:27
The more I find out about this the more I don't like it.

Back to my point.

If back in Dec, or in early January we where told that Magic9mushroom was no longer playing and his ally was temporary playing this turn. We would not be having this thread.

No - we'd have had an instant pitchfork - HE/IT alliance, grab the pitchforks...
Quote:

You can have all the "good" reasons that you want for hiding that information. My point is that it was hidden and I don't believe it should have been given the rules of this game.

Which rule? Specifically.
Quote:

"Did it effect me in this game". I don't know, as I don't know what XAPBob did that was different then what Magic9mushroom would have done. And I have no way of ever finding out.

It gifted you at least a couple of levels of W tech, and in fact a base for a while, since I'd not have missed the split fleet with more time/more eyes.
It also left you with two races in the universe who have significantly smaller economies than they might otherwise have had...
Quote:

I no longer believe that this game has been played on a fair and level playing field for all the players. As one player had information that was hidden from the others.

So are you publishing your .m every turn - or are you hiding information from other players?

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