Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Minefield salvage
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Tue, 15 January 2013 04:33   |
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One reason why minefield losses leave little to no salvage can be deduced from the Order of Events in Stars!
The OoE has it that movement occurs before packets and salvage decay. Thus, a ship hitting a mine would die (and create salvage) in the movement phase, and the newly created salvage would decay in the decay phase of the same turn. This is not so for the battle salvage, as battles occur after decay phase (thus, any salvage created by battle does not decay until the next turn).
The amount of minerals created by salvage is said to be 1/3 the mineral cost of the ships lost. This does not say what the proportion of the minerals is (I'd assume equal proportions of all minerals, unless somebody corrects me), and I'm yet to find out if the 10%/10kT decay rule applies to the entire salvage (again, in equal proportions), a random mineral out of those making up the salvage, or every mineral separately (this last assumption would make smaller salvages - below 10kT of each minerals - disappear over one turn). All these features can really make a difference when calculating how many minerals are to be left as salvage. Something to be tested, definitely.
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Thu, 17 January 2013 05:37 |
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What M.a-stars says makes sense later on although doesnt apply yet since the tech is low.
Also what Lou says but again, doesnt add up.
Just taking iron as an example a FM+Frig+2cow costs me 15 iron, so 134x15 = 2010/3 = 670 scrap?
Take away 10% decay 670*0.9 = 603 scrap.
Needless to say its not even close since there was only 2 iron left.
I cant know the iron cost of said player or the exact way the game does the calculation but it wouldnt account for the missing minerals anyway.
Its more like there was only 1 ship worth of scrap. But then there is too much boranium for 1 frigate of scrap...
Something strange walks amongst those scrapyards thats for sure 
[Updated on: Thu, 17 January 2013 05:38] by Moderator
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Thu, 17 January 2013 08:44 |
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You seem to assume that the salvage is calculated based on the total cost of all ships lost, and the distribution is proportional. As written above, I don't know if that is the case.
For starters, the salvage does not depend on the fleet's mass (which stays the same throughout the game), but on the current mineral cost (which keeps decreasing due to miniaturization as the research levels go up).
I tend to believe that salvage is calculated on component basis rather than total ship/fleet cost, using current mineral cost of each component, probably rounded down for each component separately, and then multiplied by the total number of components. This is because I have noticed certain designs leaving fairly consistent scrap compositions. I remember a game where I could reliably tell what ship was nailed at a particular location by analysing the size and composition of scrap.
Example: one certain Mini Mine Layer design in a recently concluded game was consistently leaving salvage of 3/4/5kT. Looking at the mineral cost its components would have at that date, it all adds up quite consistently.
For components that are cheap to begin with (say, 1 or 0kT of given mineral, with minaturization factored in) they can leave no salvage of particular mineral. Even a big number of ships of particular design would thus contribute little, if any, to the scrapheap.
This could explain why the salvage in this particular case was mainly boranium, and the other minerals were fairly nonexistent. I assume the ships were beam FFs, so the large number of lasers could have left some boranium. Since we don't really know how the game rounds certain values, and in which way the decay is calculated, it may well be that we're looking for a bug where there is none.
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Thu, 17 January 2013 09:34 |
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Of course I did make assumptions, as we must without real knowledge but its just guess work.
Miniaturization hasnt really come into play yet on a significant level.
Using your assumption above of component cost rounded down, still wont account it for it even remotely.
Just take 134 FM engines and explain how it can come to only 2 iron scrap at this stage?
2/134=0.0149 each engine left that much iron?
Or maybe just 2 of of 134 engines rolled a lucky round up to 1 iron?
Neither seems likely.
Considering at the same stage I see picket armed scouts leaving ~2/2/1 scrap per kill almost all the time the only logical explaination imo is that it left just 1 FF ships worth of scrap. At 2/9/0 that would seem to tie in nicely compared to the scrap from the scout kills (1 gun).
(Edit - this contradicts what I said before about too much Boriunium for one FF, after looking at some scout scrap in our current game, 9 boriunium per FF could be possible consider 2b left from 1 laser)
[Updated on: Thu, 17 January 2013 09:44] by Moderator
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Thu, 17 January 2013 10:44 |
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 m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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Well, all we really know for sure is that the scraps from a minehit aren't the same as the scraps from battle, but much lower (and more random).
We also know that for light ships leaving close to zero minerals, there's a random factor that can increase the scrap minerals over the original costs (say, 15kt scrap vs 8kt cost). 
That explains the cases where the same ships hit the same minefield at the same time (like when chaff-sweeping) and many of them can leave no scrap, while others leave minimum amounts, and yet others leave a lot. Assuming, of course, that the theory behind chaff-sweeping is correct, and minefields are reduced as they're hit, so no two ships can hit/explode at the exact same coordinates. 
Alas, big ships that would leave bigger and more easily testable amounts are also less likely to die from a minehit, so we are left with the harder-to-check cases. 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme!  Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Fri, 18 January 2013 14:44 |
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From the StarsFaq:
Quote:After battle, 1/3 of the mineral cost of the destroyed ships is left as salvage. If the battle took place in orbit, these minerals are deposited on the planet below.
In deep space, each type of mineral decays 10%, or 10kT per year, whichever is higher. Salvage deposited on planets does not decay.
In the order of events minefield hits happen before decay.
Several assumptions:
1) Let's say salvage is 1/3 like in battles.
2) But first every ship is caclualted independently (and only at a later stage in the order of events all scraps are added to one chunk)
If 15 iro were needed to produce a ship, 1/3 is salvage = 5kt.
Decay is 10% or a minimum of 10kt = 0kt for salvage
With this calculation only minefield-salvage from ships could be detected if the cost of at least 1 type of mineral was higher than 30 (with rounding perhaps higher than 33).
Would the salvage detected in the game work out when above assumptions are used?
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Sun, 20 January 2013 10:44 |
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XAPBob wrote on Sun, 20 January 2013 15:42No, even 1kT left per ship would be salvage of 134kT.
True enough. And if my guess (above) is right, then your frigates wouldn't leave any salvage at all, assuming their production costs were below 30 iro, bora or germ.
Quote:salvage packet of 2/9/0
It is obvious that there was NOT 1kt left per ship, so you have to look for other explanations.
The exploded ships, are they all of the same design and frigates or was there perhaps one or some other ships of a different design (more expensive) which also exploded?
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Sun, 20 January 2013 14:48 |
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Altruist wrote on Sat, 19 January 2013 01:14From the StarsFaq:
Quote:After battle, 1/3 of the mineral cost of the destroyed ships is left as salvage. If the battle took place in orbit, these minerals are deposited on the planet below.
In deep space, each type of mineral decays 10%, or 10kT per year, whichever is higher. Salvage deposited on planets does not decay.
In the order of events minefield hits happen before decay.
Several assumptions:
1) Let's say salvage is 1/3 like in battles.
2) But first every ship is caclualted independently (and only at a later stage in the order of events all scraps are added to one chunk)
If 15 iro were needed to produce a ship, 1/3 is salvage = 5kt.
Decay is 10% or a minimum of 10kt = 0kt for salvage
With this calculation only minefield-salvage from ships could be detected if the cost of at least 1 type of mineral was higher than 30 (with rounding perhaps higher than 33).
Would the salvage detected in the game work out when above assumptions are used?
hmm.. you might have something going there.. what if only the ship design count is considered, not how many actual ships are there?
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Mon, 21 January 2013 22:30 |
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LittleEddie wrote on Sun, 20 January 2013 21:52just to help a little the ships were
134ea Frigates 1FM, 2 WD & 3 X-rays
Cost in the year lost
I:17kt each 2278 total
B:17kt each 2278
G:10kt each 1340
other ships in the fleet survived.
Salvage left
I: 2kt
B: 9kt
G: 0kt
I guess you are sure that there wasn't perhaps for example an additional freighter or xport involved that got also blasted up?
Because if "only" 134 ships of the very same type exploded... I take everything back I said above and admit: I haven't got the slightest clue how the salvage is calculated.
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Tue, 22 January 2013 10:13 |
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| XAPBob |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012 | |
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LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 07:14XAPBob wrote on Mon, 21 January 2013 11:21LittleEddie wrote on Sun, 20 January 2013 15:52That's the problem with a surpise attack, you don't always know who the surpise will be on. 
How true,
Had I had more time on the following turn I might have paid more attention to the missing fleet elements - D'Oh...
Interesting to see what battle(s) will take place next year...
So you plan on attacking me next year, and I haven't killed anything of yours, more then a scout or two. 
Wrong forum for this conversation, but you've just gated a sizable warfleet with bombers into my territory (even into a minefield of mine) having killed more than a few scouts - as well as the doomed attack which caused this thread...
It's rather a long way from home don't you think, I asked you politely to turn around, you haven't done so.
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Wed, 23 January 2013 05:41 |
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XAPBob wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 16:13LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 07:14XAPBob wrote on Mon, 21 January 2013 11:21LittleEddie wrote on Sun, 20 January 2013 15:52That's the problem with a surpise attack, you don't always know who the surpise will be on.
How true,
Had I had more time on the following turn I might have paid more attention to the missing fleet elements - D'Oh...
Interesting to see what battle(s) will take place next year...
So you plan on attacking me next year, and I haven't killed anything of yours, more then a scout or two.
Wrong forum for this conversation, but you've just gated a sizable warfleet with bombers into my territory (even into a minefield of mine) having killed more than a few scouts - as well as the doomed attack which caused this thread...
It's rather a long way from home don't you think, I asked you politely to turn around, you haven't done so.
Gentlemen,
please keep your in-game trash-talking in the relevant thread. The game's subforum exists for a reason.
m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 22 January 2013 10:21Remember there's a random element involved, most evident in chaff-sweeps, where almost every bit of salvage is different. 
Can you share some evidence on this?
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| Re: Minefield salvage |
Thu, 24 January 2013 04:31 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
Quote:When chaff-sweeping, most or all of the ships hitting mines are too light/cheap to leave any salvage. Yet some do, and of these no two are alike.
Here on AH is a topic, that describes possibility of "mining" those salvages. IIRC it involves sending lots of HE MiniCol ships (price 2/0/1 or close) into (detonating?) minefield. Each ship leaves some random (but below 10 kT) amount of each mineral, so much more than it costed. Next turn player picks salvages and the proces is repeated. IIRC the conclusion was "feasible but not usable" - too much MM required. From 100 salvages on average 500 kT of each mineral, for 1 hour of work and for 100 fleet slots "lost".
BR, Iztok
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) but they've only left a salvage packet of 2/9/0 - that seem VERY small to me, given the actual fleet mass to start with.
