Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield.
| Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 02:31  |
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I've been told that, despite what the stars help file states, the % chances of hitting a minefield are based on the distance traveled in the minefield, at the lowest speed required to get through it.
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Crash_sweeping
| Quote: |
the probability of hitting a minefield is not based on the speed set in the interface, but on the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved. eg if you send a ship 60ly at W9 your chances of hitting are the same as travelling at W8.
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eg 1 - If I'm 16 LYs from a world and the world has a minefield of 16 LYs, I can fly in safely at warp4 safely.
eg 2 - If I'm 81 LYs from a world and the world has a minefield of 16 LYs, I can fly in safely at warp9 safely as well.
eg 3 - If I'm 81 LYs from a world and the world has a minefield of 25 LYs, I can travel only (81-25+16) 72 LYs at warp9
It's only if I'm flying through all 81 LYs of the minefield, is the % hitting of the minefield as per warp9.
In other words, it's only the distance I'm traveling 'IN' the minefield that matters.
Could someone please confirm?
Regards.
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 10:27  |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 16:16 |
| nmid wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 08:31 |
I've been told that, despite what the stars help file states, the % chances of hitting a minefield are based on the distance traveled in the minefield, at the lowest speed required to get through it.
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Exactly. And the minimum warp required to travel 81lys, regardless of there being a minefield in the way, is still Warp9. 
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Kindly read again, heh.
The wiki quote might be a good sentence to reread, or perhaps a variation of eg 3..
In eg 3, the speed to travel is warp4, as one travelled only 16 lys in the minefield.
If I was 64 lys away, minefield was 37 lys, then the speed used in calculating a hit would be warp7. Traveling in at warp 8 or 9 would not make any difference.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 10:30 |
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| LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 15:57 |
That doesn't go with what I've seen and my testbeds.
At warp 9 a fleet traveling through 16ly of minefield will have a 1.5 percent change of hitting a mine 16 times.
at Warp 10 it's 1.8% per ly traveled
W9 = 1.5%
W8 = 1.2%
W7 = 0.9%
W6 = 0.6%
W5 = 0.3%
The effect is as you describe, but the chances are not 0.
Edit: if what you described was true then I don't think clearing a mine field with chaff would work. What your quote is saying is that "if the total distance your traveling is less then 64.?ly then warp 8 is used even if the interface is set to warp 9". So it's still 1.2% chance for every ly traveled in the minefield.
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Reply to the edit part... Actually, that's why we set our chaff to travel across the mine field, not just to the centre of the mf, when we chaff sweep it.
To maximise the distance travelled IN the minefield.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 11:09 |
|
 LittleEddie |
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Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware | |
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| Quote: |
eg 1 - If I'm 16 LYs from a world and the world has a minefield of 16 LYs, I can fly in safely at warp4 safely.
eg 2 - If I'm 81 LYs from a world and the world has a minefield of 16 LYs, I can fly in safely at warp9 safely as well.
eg 3 - If I'm 81 LYs from a world and the world has a minefield of 25 LYs, I can travel only (81-25+16) 72 LYs at warp9
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eg 1: this is correct, you are traveling a total distance of 16 at Warp 4 through the mine field. No chance of hitting a mine.
eg 2: Wrong: You are traveling a total of 81LYs at Warp 9, 16 of the 81Lys will be in a mine field and you will be traveling at Warp 9. So Stars! will check to see if you hit a mine 16 times with the random chance of 1.5% (ie 1.5 times out of 100).
eg 3: Same as eg 2 except Stars! will check 25 times.
| Quote: |
the probability of hitting a minefield is not based on the speed set in the interface, but on the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved. eg if you send a ship 60ly at W9 your chances of hitting are the same as travelling at W8.
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Now in this quote it's
You have the interface set to travel Warp 9 for 60Lys and travel through a mine field of 16Ly. Since you are traveling only 60Lys total, Stars! figures your captain made a mistake and corrected it for him. So Stars! uses Warp 8 for the math, if you only traveled a total of 46Ly it would use Warp 7, but it will still check to see if you hit a mine 16 times. One time for each light year traveled in a mine field.
[Updated on: Tue, 01 May 2012 11:16] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 11:49 |
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| LittleEddie |
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Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware | |
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| Eagle of Fire wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 11:17 |
I've always been good with numbers but lack of education and practice get the best of me.
Would 16 times 1.5% equal (1.5*16=2.4%) or (1.5^16=656,840...=6,56%)?
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I've never tried to figure it that way, each light year is figured as one event.
If you flip a coin 5 times and it's heads each time, then the odds for the next flip is still 50-50. Or you using a weighted coin. 
In the example 16@w9 I think it's like, for each ly travel through the minefield, the computer flips 150 coins and then picks one coin at random, if it's heads you have hit a mine.
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 13:01 |
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| LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 20:39 |
| Quote: |
the probability of hitting a minefield is not based on the speed set in the interface, but on the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved. eg if you send a ship 60ly at W9 your chances of hitting are the same as travelling at W8.
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Now in this quote it's
You have the interface set to travel Warp 9 for 60Lys and travel through a mine field of 16Ly. Since you are traveling only 60Lys total, Stars! figures your captain made a mistake and corrected it for him. So Stars! uses Warp 8 for the math, if you only traveled a total of 46Ly it would use Warp 7, but it will still check to see if you hit a mine 16 times. One time for each light year traveled in a mine field.
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I get where you say the entire travel was within the minefield.
We are on the same page so far.
Let's take another example, with partial travel through a minefield - 25 ly minefield, 64 lys from minefield center, traveling to center at warp8. Stars will check at
a> warp 8 or
b> warp 5?
You are saying that stars! considers the total travel, not the distance only traveled in the minefield.. (option a)
Hmmmm... I'm sure that's not how I understood it in the 1st place (option b), but you live and learn everyday.
I would love if someone else could confirm this, apart from my (upcoming?) testbed.
[Updated on: Tue, 01 May 2012 13:02]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 13:27 |
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| LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 20:57 |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
Edit: if what you described was true then I don't think clearing a mine field with chaff would work.
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Reply to the edit part... Actually, that's why we set our chaff to travel across the mine field, not just to the centre of the mf, when we chaff sweep it.
To maximise the distance travelled IN the minefield.
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Now if what you say is true then at warp 9 a mine field would never be chaff sweeped to less then 16ly's because it could safely travel through it.
And that don't happen
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That's a good testbed.
Thanks Ed.
After testbedding :
| LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 20:39 |
| Quote: |
the probability of hitting a minefield is not based on the speed set in the interface, but on the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved. eg if you send a ship 60ly at W9 your chances of hitting are the same as travelling at W8.
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Now in this quote it's
You have the interface set to travel Warp 9 for 60Lys and travel through a mine field of 16Ly. Since you are traveling only 60Lys total, Stars! figures your captain made a mistake and corrected it for him. So Stars! uses Warp 8 for the math, if you only traveled a total of 46Ly it would use Warp 7, but it will still check to see if you hit a mine 16 times. One time for each light year traveled in a mine field.
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You were right. The quote about the lowest speed relevant and interpretation I was taking from it was valid for travel only in a minefield.
Warp9, warp6, warp4 are all the same if you travel only 16 LYs in the minefield.
However with partial travel through a minefield, the total distance matters. It's not the distance traveled ONLY in the minefield, as I was wrongly assuming.
Slightly embarrassed that I had 'learnt' something new a year ago and and didn't testbed it to check it was correct.. Guess the minefields never hit me on any important ships to realise something was off.
Conclusion : Total distance traveled matters. Do'oh !
[Updated on: Tue, 01 May 2012 13:31] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Tue, 01 May 2012 23:42 |
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| Eagle of Fire | 
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5 | |
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| Quote: |
Eagle of Fire wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 17:17
I've always been good with numbers but lack of education and practice get the best of me.
Would 16 times 1.5% equal (1.5*16=2.4%) or (1.5^16=656,840...=6,56%)?
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What you need to calculate here is the chance of not hitting the minefield (or at least that gives the simplest calculation).
The chance of not hitting the minefield once is 100%-1.5%=98.5%, or 0.985.
The chance of not hitting a minefield 16 times in a row is them 0.985^16 = 0.7852, or 78.52%.
This means that the chance of hitting a minefield when travelling 16 ly through the minefield at warp 9 is 1-0.7825=0.2148, or 21.48%.
At least that is what my understanding of probability calculations says it will be.
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That make a lot of sense. Actually I think that's the same kind of calculation than when you want to calculate computer efficiency right?
Though 21.48% (1 times on 5 tries) is an awful lot and doesn't actually fit with my own experience...
[Updated on: Tue, 01 May 2012 23:43]
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Wed, 02 May 2012 11:49 |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 02 May 2012 20:40 |
| nmid wrote on Tue, 01 May 2012 16:27 |
Kindly read again, heh.
The wiki quote might be a good sentence to reread, or perhaps a variation of eg 3..
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By all means: 
| the Wiki says: |
the probability of hitting a minefield is not based on the speed set in the interface, but on the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved. eg if you send a ship 60ly at W9 your chances of hitting are the same as travelling at W8.
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Now where does this imply that 81lys get automagically reduced for minehit calculations to only the distance actually covered by the mines? 
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m.a., I'll read your post as a straight-forward question.
The language used in the quote can be read it two different ways. I assumed, wrongly so, that "the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved" referred to only the "desired distance moved (in the minefield)".
I hope it explains how my misunderstanding came to arise.
Also, It was explained to me as such a couple of months ago, which lead me to this understanding.
Hope you don't have to hit your computer anymore.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Fri, 04 May 2012 07:19 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Quote: |
the probability of hitting a minefield is not based on the speed set in the interface, but on the minimum warp speed needed to travel the desired distance moved. eg if you send a ship 60ly at W9 your chances of hitting are the same as travelling at W8.
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IIRC this is only valid if your ship(s) start _IN_ the minefield. If they're outside, "normal" movement happens.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Fri, 04 May 2012 07:20] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Clarification required on minefields, safe speed and partial movement through a minefield. |
Fri, 04 May 2012 09:08 |
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Thanks Iztok... I understand what you meant to say 
Though if I had read it before I did the testbed, I would have thought of travel that "started" *IN* the minefield, then open space, then "ended" in "another" minefield.
Anyways, my convoluted crazy logic that had 3-4 sub-rules was simply replaced by one sentence...
"Total distance traveled matters, irrespective of how many are actually in the minefield."
headslam.
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