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New Bug ! Thu, 05 January 2012 15:23 Go to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 985
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

 Hi ,

Maybe some of you have more time to find out the exact nature of this bug just found in the game Dynamid3.

What happened:

1. Player 11 built a lot of different updates for his SB's which Stars! indicated would be completed next turn.
2. Player 12 scrapped as WP0 weapon tech ships.

after Gen.

1. Player 11 got a tech in weapons from the scrap.
2. Most of the SB updates were NOT finished. The expectation was that they would have been finished as Stars had indicated the previous turn.

What I've done:

I checked for the designs and have removed them and put in the same design to check for the cost and Stars said it would be done in one year.

After I did not found anything wrong I removed the tech trade. After I have removed the tech trade and player 11 has not got a tech in weapon, the SB updates were successfully finished.
So it seems to me it is a bug in the Stars engine when it calculates the cost for SB and maybe even for ships by tech trade.

There should be some tests made to figure out what are the exact reasons so we could write it down in the must know bug list.

I do not have the time at the moment to do it myself but I know there are several Players around who like to check this Razz


ccmaster






[Updated on: Thu, 05 January 2012 15:50] by Moderator


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Re: New Bug ! Thu, 05 January 2012 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rolfverberg

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 103
Registered: March 2006
Location: Ithaca, NY, USA
 This is interesting.

I know about rounding off and how it can affect building when the number of available resources is close to what is needed for completion. Basically, the queue makes it green and then next year it's 99% completed due to round off differences that only come into play when the true actual cost is calculated during hosting.

I have never really had an issue like this that I positively know off. However, earlier in this game I had a base that ended up unfinished, despite the fact that I gave it extra resources to make sure it completed in one year. I don't remember if we had a wp0 tech trade, but since this is a team game and we've been pretty much trading most turns, the likelihood is pretty good. I remember because it was recently and I was quite annoyed.

I think some testing is in order, I'm swamped myself though Sad

Cheers, Rolf.

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 07 January 2012 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
 What level of Weapons is involved? Could it have triggered a flurry of Terraforming? Did the problem happen in more than one planet? Sherlock

It would also be interesting to know what else was queued, and in what order. And of course the exact designs of these SBs and updates. Deal

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 08 January 2012 01:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 985
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

 Hi ,


game is still running so I could not give you all the informations because we are not alown Razz


ccmaster

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Re: New Bug ! Mon, 09 January 2012 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rolfverberg

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 103
Registered: March 2006
Location: Ithaca, NY, USA
m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 07 January 2012 10:23

What level of Weapons is involved? Could it have triggered a flurry of Terraforming?



Yes, that's a good thought, if auto terroaform was on in the top of the queue and a new level was obtained, that would do it. Although, I guess that was not the case. I think they would have realized that after the fact Smile

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Re: New Bug ! Wed, 11 January 2012 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
 Well, can you at least replicate the problem using a testbed? Deal

Without more details I'm not even able to make more guesses. Sherlock

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: New Bug ! Thu, 12 January 2012 04:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Braindead is currently offline Braindead

 
Officer Cadet 2nd Year

Messages: 238
Registered: April 2005
Location: Ohio
 Did the cost of the base go down after the new tech?
Was the base partially done?

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Re: New Bug ! Thu, 12 January 2012 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ccmaster is currently offline ccmaster

 
Lt. Commander
Dueling Club Administrator

Messages: 985
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany

 no - no

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 04:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maxfra is currently offline maxfra

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 32
Registered: February 2007
Hi all,

the bug has happened again.
A SB who should have been upgraded in just 1 year was not finished and built only at 87%.

The WP0 weap tech trade has been successful.

I tried to create the same bug on a test game but was not successful.

I may provide more info but the game is still on so I can't be too detailed.

Thanks.

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 07:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
 Was there anything else queued *before* the SB? Confused

Was it the same branch of tech transferred as the 1st time? Or completely unrelated? Sherlock

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 08:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
Quote:

What happened:

1. Player 11 built a lot of different updates for his SB's which Stars! indicated would be completed next turn.
2. Player 12 scrapped as WP0 weapon tech ships.

after Gen.

1. Player 11 got a tech in weapons from the scrap.
2. Most of the SB updates were NOT finished. The expectation was that they would have been finished as Stars had indicated the previous turn.


Snowy Saturday so no golf.

I've read this several times now and don't really understand what your saying.

What I understand & testbedded: I took two races and
Race A: set up the HW to maxxed out the Queue with a new SB design. One resource point left.
Race B: Scrapped 7 ships over Race A's HW.

It worked every time ie the SB was built.

So I reread the problem & now I'm wondering

Is Player 11 updateing SB's on different planets or is he updating from SB-A to SB-B to SB-C on the same planet on the same turn?

Are you saying that ships where scrapped at Planet A and a SB was not completed on Planet B that should have been? And was completed without the scrapping?

[Updated on: Sat, 21 January 2012 08:41]

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 13:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maxfra is currently offline maxfra

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 32
Registered: February 2007
Trying to answer some questions ....

Before the SB there was nothing else in the queue. It was the only one element in the queue. There was already a Space Dock with some equipment at the planet (let's call it SD_A). Then, with enough mineral, I designed a new SD_B (adding some stuff from SD_A) which required exactly or very few resources less then those produced at the planet (ex. the planet was producing 60 res and the upgrade required 58 res.). The next year the SD_B was built only at 89%.

I received a weap tech via WP0 scrapping at another planet, the same tech as the first time I saw the bug. But I received previously weap tech and I did not see the issue.

I haven't managed to create a test bed with the same results. There may be something else which I'm missing ...

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Greenstink is currently offline Greenstink

 
Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 76
Registered: January 2011
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Guts_of_scrapping

This page says that (may be inaccurate) that you can gain resources by scrapping at planets with starbases. Could the bug not be in the formula taking resources rather then giving them which would drain the production of the planet by the scrapping of the fleet?

Da Orcs Smasha anz Brecka itz alz, Den wez drikz alz da stunty beer anz slepz

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
Greenstink wrote on Sat, 21 January 2012 15:04

http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Guts_of_scrapping

This page says that (may be inaccurate) that you can gain resources by scrapping at planets with starbases. Could the bug not be in the formula taking resources rather then giving them which would drain the production of the planet by the scrapping of the fleet?



But the scrapping is happening at a different planet.

I can't reproduce this bug trying anything I can think of so far. Everytime that the Planet Queue says it has enough resources to built the item, it does.

Every time I've had something like this happen to me it's been something I did and not Stars!. Like setting up a Queue and then later coming back and lifting some Population needed elsewhere. Or setting up research to get a item the next year and then changing a planet's queue spending the resources I had planned to spend on research.

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
LittleEddie wrote on Sat, 21 January 2012 21:17

the scrapping is happening at a different planet.

It must be something else, then. Indeed it does look like a new kind of bug, possibly related to the copying (and editing) of designs, or to the way Resources allocated to Research (via the percent spinner) are calculated. Confused

The "invisible starbase" bug affecting AR queues comes to mind too. Sherlock

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1
Duel club Champion 2007
Duel Club Champion 2007
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 141
Registered: June 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA

 I can think of one way this could happen legitimately - not considered a bug. It has to do with the miniaturization formula in the game.

Say you are SS and have a base with Shadow Shields (tech requirements Energy 7, Electronics 3). Your current tech levels are Energy 10, Electronics 3. You want to upgrade to Bear Neutrino Shields (tech requirement Energy 10). Your improvements take up 99% of your planet's resources and are the only item in queue.

When the turn generates, a waypoint zero scrap of Electronics happens and you get the level. Now that you have exceeded ALL the tech requirements for Shadow Shields by 1, the shields are 4% cheaper. Production phase comes in later and gives you less credit for the old base than was displayed last turn.

Edited to show the correct Energy requirement for Shadow shields, 7

[Updated on: Sat, 21 January 2012 20:52]

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Re: New Bug ! Sat, 21 January 2012 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5
Bystander wrote on Sun, 22 January 2012 07:20

I can think of one way this could happen legitimately - not considered a bug. It has to do with the miniaturization formula in the game.

Say you are SS and have a base with Shadow Shields (tech requirements Energy 7, Electronics 3). Your current tech levels are Energy 10, Electronics 3. You want to upgrade to Bear Neutrino Shields (tech requirement Energy 10). Your improvements take up 99% of your planet's resources and are the only item in queue.

When the turn generates, a waypoint zero scrap of Electronics happens and you get the level. Now that you have exceeded ALL the tech requirements for Shadow Shields by 1, the shields are 4% cheaper. Production phase comes in later and gives you less credit for the old base than was displayed last turn.

Edited to show the correct Energy requirement for Shadow shields, 7




Brilliant. This gets a +1 even if there is another reason.
Can the people who have faced the problem check if this was the reason... Or if the gap caused for exactly the cost of tech R&D?

I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 04:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maxfra is currently offline maxfra

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 32
Registered: February 2007
I don't agree with you.
Miniaturization should decrease the upgrade cost, not increase it ....

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 06:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 517
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
 No, it's the other way around.

Quote:

Going beyond the level needed to produce an item has cost benefits: for every technology level you achieve above the required level, the production cost of that item is reduced by 5%. You can eventually reduce the production costs for many items by 75%. This is also referred to as miniaturization.(v2.6b help file)


So lets say you have a X-ray(16ea) armed SD (Wea 3) which cost 4 resource each for a total of 64R. Now you scrap at Order of Events(OoE) 3 and the X-rays price is reduced 5% to now cost 3R each, total now 48, when you get to OoE 12, and build the new SD with Pulsed Sappers, Price reduced by 5% but still 12 resources ea you will be at least 16R short of what's needed.

You should be able to check the price of weapons from one turn to the next, but because of rounding and that the math is done at two different places & times it may not show up in the Tech browser.

Little Eddie

Edit:just making it more readable

[Updated on: Sun, 22 January 2012 07:07]

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

 But you get a lower refund back...
Eddie explained it more detail.

Mobile nmid.

[Updated on: Sun, 22 January 2012 07:30]



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maxfra is currently offline maxfra

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 32
Registered: February 2007
I'm sorry but I did not understand your explanation. Moreover, if it were only for miniaturisation I do not understand why a 4% cost decrease would take at a completion in production only to 89%. Where has gone the missing 11%?

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 08:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

 Don't compare %s.

Taking eddie,s eg of 64 and 48 after tech gain...
(Ps - afaik, You get a refund of 80% iirc at the same slot... Not sure if u don,t upgrade to the same item in the same slot. Complete loss or still a partial refund.)

Anyways, u upgrade the dock that had 16 X-rays with a dock that has 16 yaks.. The original upgrade cost is (assume) an additional 30 (to fill actual number ) resources which stars computes before the tech miniaturisation.
However after the tech boost, u get only 16 (64-48) resources refunded... Which means the base is now short 14 (30-16) resources... I.e. only 48% approx complete.
Thus the 4% miniaturisation has no relation to the % of the base left undone.

Mobile nmid.

[Updated on: Sun, 22 January 2012 08:16]



I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1608
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

 To make it simpler take bystanders eg.. Shadow shield with elec and energy being upgraded into gorilla shields with only energy tech.
The elec tech boost will give the reduction of cost only to shadow shield but not the gorilla or bear shields.

I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
I'd say that bystanders suggestions seems to be the most probable one, well thoght of. It can be tested, too (what I'll not do).

My other favourite explanation: terraforming happening due to a gained tech level, well, it seems we can rule this out if no terraforming was even in the queue.

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Re: New Bug ! Sun, 22 January 2012 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
maxfra is currently offline maxfra

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 32
Registered: February 2007
To be exact the SB upgrade was the first item in queue, followed by terraforming which has never been started

The problem is that the upgrade consisted in placing 10 Neutronium armor in the place of 24 bear neutrino ... but the tech gained was weapon ...

I really cannot understand ....

[Updated on: Sun, 22 January 2012 09:16]

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