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Rarely worry about it!

I know you will be to read this.

For -f races I set the default orders to

10 mines
1 max terraform

For HG/HP races the default orders are

1020 Factories
1020 Mines
Max Terraform 5%
10 Defenses

I then occasionally adjust to suit the situation.

A HG race with an immunity and just needing 1 or 2 clicks of terraforming at a particular will probably benefit from that more than factories.

For a -f terraforming is almost always good as you need pop to grow resources. But you also need minerals for building warships/transports and you need to research tech quickly.

HP race. Factories. Factories. Factories! I like to find a nice juicy big green without g when I play HP. That way I can use it to grow lots of pop and max out terraforming on that planet because I won't be doing it on any others as a general rule.

As ever, local circumstances and the need to balance competing requirements alters your priorities.

Then there is AR. I suggest you review the AR game discussions and the available literature.

Edited spelling error.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2011 06:26]

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 12:36

As far as increased pop growth goes, though, terra is strictly a long-term measure. The same 50% to 51% boost only increases growth (assuming 19% growth and 25% hold here) from 13100 to 13600 (which will pay itself back in 87 turns for the settings mentioned above).

Don't forget the competitive nature of the situation. If your neighbors grow faster bigger than you, they'll clobber you to rubble way before than that.

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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 21:15

magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 12:36 As far as increased pop growth goes, though, terra is strictly a long-term measure. The same 50% to 51% boost only increases growth (assuming 19% growth and 25% hold here) from 13100 to 13600 (which will pay itself back in 87 turns for the settings mentioned above). Don't forget the competitive nature of the situation. If your neighbors grow faster bigger than you, they'll clobber you to rubble way before than that.

'Tis irrelevant. Until you get your 100 resources that you spent back, you haven't gained anything from the terra. It's not resources that matter, it's resource integral.

Unless you're talking about mass popdrops?

I did overestimate the time, though.

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 13:25

Until you get your 100 resources that you spent back, you haven't gained anything from the terra.

Assuming you got better investments...

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goober wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 02:34

Rarely worry about it! I know you will be to read this.

It sounds as though you rarely worry about it because you've already put the thought into determining your growth strategy, so now you focus your thinking on the game at hand.

Quote:

For -f races I set the default orders to 10 mines 1 max terraform For HG/HP races the default orders are 1020 Factories 1020 Mines Max Terraform 5% 10 Defenses I then occasionally adjust to suit the situation.

Do you really mean 10 mines for your -f queue? I usually put 100 mines (actual, not autobuild) then terra, adjusting as necessary.

Quote:

For a -f terraforming is almost always good as you need pop to grow resources. But you also need minerals for building warships/transports and you need to research tech quickly.

And that's the root of the question. When does it make sense to put one in front of the others? It sounds as though for a -f, in particular, you're suggesting early investment in terra is very important!

Cheers,
Void

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 03:36

I mean, if you're at 100% capacity, and improve your hab from 50% to 51%, for a non-JoaT OBRM 1/1000 10/9/13 race you'd be getting 25 extra resources per turn, enough to pay 1 click of terra back in a mere 4 turns (which is much faster than factories).

That provides additional potential resources as you allude to later..."and you still have to get the pop from somewhere".

Quote:

So, if you can immediately use the extra capacity and are crowded, it's ridiculously good to terraform.

Agreed, although as you likely surmised, I'm still trying to figure out early game strategies.

Quote:

As far as increased pop growth goes, though, terra is strictly a long-term measure. The same 50% to 51% boost only increases growth (assuming 19% growth and 25% hold here) from 13100 to 13600 (which will pay itself back in 87 turns for the settings mentioned above).

Not sure I follow your math, there. Can you elaborate?

Cheers,
Void

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ManicLurch wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 10:17

That varies quite a bit depending on your hab scheme and the actual habs of the planet you own. What I do for the early game is crunch the numbers on a spreadsheet and look at each planet to see what would I gain if I were to terraform. Sometimes one unit of terraforming will only improve the planet by 1% or less. Sometimes it will improve the planet by 5%!

Great, more micro-management. Makes sense, though. Short of the spreadsheet route, any suggestions on eyeballing this?

Cheers,
Void

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Void wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 17:33

And that's the root of the question. When does it make sense to put one in front of the others? It sounds as though for a -f, in particular, you're suggesting early investment in terra is very important!

Sounds as if the very early game is what interests you, so:

Germ for Facs is usually at a premium, and very few planets will have enough, and even less to spare.

Factores compound as per their cost/productivity ratio, modified by the available Germ, so available Resources, cost of Mines, Productivity of Mines, and Mineral Concentrations also matter. As do, after the few initial years, the amount of Operated Mines.

On the other hand, Pop (and its Resources) compounds as per existing Pop and Hab, so it's no surprise that for many races and planets, Pop growth is the main factor in the early years, and the only ways to improve it are sending more Pop and/or Terraforming.

That makes Breeders important, but if you cannot improve growth by bringing more Pop (because you can't spare it, or because of crowding) then the best thing you can do is Terra, as it not only improves growth, but also gets more room for that growth.

All of which translates into Default Production Queues like this one:

Quote:

(auto)build 10 Facs (or about what 100 Res can do in a turn) (auto)build 20 Mines (or about what 100 Res can do in a turn) (auto)Terra 1 Point (you'll reach here if you have enough Res to do it in 1 turn) (auto)build 20 Facs (auto)build 40 Mines (you'll reach here if you have 500 Res or 200 Res and no Germ) (auto)Terra 5 Points (auto)build 200 Facs (auto)build 400 Mines (auto)Terra 25 Points ...

That is:
1st, spend all the Germ, but if there's not enough,
2nd, build a bunch of Mines, but if there's Res to spare,
3rd, do some Terra. If there's more Res and Germ,
Do more Facs, Mines, and Terra.
And so on, until maxxed.

This kind of Queue has several advantages:
if there's more Germ, you'll automatically build more Facs before anything else.
if you have plenty Resources, spending some in Terra won't kill you.
it can be made "steeper" or "flatter" to suit needs or tastes. It can also be adjusted to TT (70 instead of 100 Res)
works for Yellows and Greens.
can be "capped" to only the few initial lines to free Res for things like Research or shipbuilding, or to free some Germ.
ships and other "one shot" items can be added at the start, the end, or the middle, allowing some "timing control".

And the best, it frees you to think mainly about Xploring, Xpanding and Xterminating!

[Updated on: Sun, 17 July 2011 17:51]

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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 11:27

Sounds as if the very early game is what interests you.

Yes, it is.

Quote:

That is: 1st, spend all the Germ, but if there's not enough, 2nd, build a bunch of Mines, but if there's Res to spare, 3rd, do some Terra. If there's more Res and Germ, Do more Facs, Mines, and Terra. And so on, until maxxed.

That makes sense, intuitively, and the autobuild orders you suggest get to my question of when, by way of suggesting how much of each to do.

Quote:

And the best, it frees you to think mainly about Xploring, Xpanding and Xterminating!

And that's the whole point of all this, isn't it?

Thanks for the well thought out and articulated reply. Much appreciated!

Cheers,
Void

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Void wrote on Sun, 17 July 2011 21:24

the autobuild orders you suggest get to my question of when, by way of suggesting how much of each to do.

Tweak, testbed, and enjoy!

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Void wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 01:43

That provides additional potential resources as you allude to later..."and you still have to get the pop from somewhere".

In case you're wondering, I was including the capacity from the extra factories the pop could operate.

Quote:

Agreed, although as you likely surmised, I'm still trying to figure out early game strategies.

Indeed. I was just summarising the most clear-cut case.

Quote:

Not sure I follow your math, there. Can you elaborate? Cheers, Void

I forget how I did that, actually. I believe I screwed it up.

The point is, in general, that the extra pop growth isn't significant enough to matter in the short term (less than 20 turns) unless you have a really narrow band.

Void wrote on Mon, 18 July 2011 01:45

True, but is it the resource integral up to a certain point, or after? If it's the former, then your point is well take. If it's the latter, then the resources will drive the resource integral moving forward. Likely, it's both. And unless we're in the very late game, I would imagine it's safe to say there will be good things to spend resources on. Cheers, Void

Well, obviously, terra pays itself off in the long run, but your question is when to do it.

Generally, factories and mines should come first, as long as that's what will get the terra done the fastest. IOW, it really depends on both your race specs and the planet.

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All good games are like that anyways. Because otherwise we would have a very streamlined and boring game.

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[Updated on: Tue, 19 July 2011 19:53]

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Altruist wrote on Tue, 19 July 2011 16:07

A very helpful tool I use is Per's terra-hab.spreadshed: * Per's Terra-Hab-Tool, V 1.03

Great stuff! Goober sent me a variation of this, and it also provided some great insight.

Any more cool tools you old-timers use to ease the burden?

Cheers,
Void

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