Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Early skirmishers
| Early skirmishers |
Sat, 02 July 2011 15:16  |
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 Void |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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It's very early game - first 20 years, max - and you're pushing outwards to define your territory. What ships do you use to ensure your colonising/replenishing fleets arrive safely and to engage the errant enemy scout, coloniser, or transport? I'm not looking to attack planets with these; just engage ships.
Here are some obvious choices. When would you use each? How would you configure them? When would you stop using one and start using another?
Scout
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Scouts don't seem to be useful for much of anything from a warship standpoint. They're too slow to even reach a target, and even if they do, only a light, unshielded ship could possibly succumb.
Destroyer
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Early DDs look great for escorting colonising/replenishing fleets (both from a fuel and defense perspective). Whether weapons tech is at 0 (laser), 3 (x-ray), or 6 (Yak), a destroyer's 200dp of armor makes it robust and it's fairly configurable.
Question: Do you normally place two or three beams on a DD hull? If two, what do you put in the GP slot? What about
Question: At what weapons tech do you normally starting building up Construction in order to get to frigates and cruisers?
Frigate
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With any kind of energy tech these are cheaper to produce than DDs and offer the same firepower (albeit less dp).
Questions: Are Yaks effective? Are Bazooka's best? Are Colloidals' better range worth the cost on a FF?
Other - What other hulls do/can people use in the very early game?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Sat, 02 July 2011 18:59  |
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| Eagle of Fire | 
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5 | |
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| Quote: |
It's very early game - first 20 years, max - and you're pushing outwards to define your territory. What ships do you use to ensure your colonising/replenishing fleets arrive safely and to engage the errant enemy scout, coloniser, or transport? I'm not looking to attack planets with these; just engage ships.
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Weapons are not really important here because it is unlikely that you already have range 3 beams. If you had, you would not ask this question and would go with them as range 3 beam can hit about any solo target on the battle board with default BS of your own.
What is really important in an interceptor is speed. You need to be able to intercept on the battle board what you want to intercept on the galaxy view, else you are wasting resources building useless ships which are not good at what you built them and which will more than likely never be good at anything else short of fodder. And since you do not have optimum weapon range, you need to make sure your speed cover the distance before the enemy flee away.
Most players use the FM for their first few interceptors. While it does make sense resource and fuel wise, it lower your BS by a lot. Quick scouts can often run away from those and thus scan the intended planets before a counter is produced and arrive on the scene.
This make for a very interesting conundrum... The obvious way to get more BS is either to add maneuvering thrusters and/or to install better engine on the design... But then again, better engines so early in game mean that you will have a big fuel problem soon if you do not also add a fuel pod at the spot usually reserved for the maneuvering thruster... In turn, this mean lower possible speed and increased resource cost, resources which are not sent to research for better interceptors...
I guess you get the point.
| Quote: |
Here are some obvious choices. When would you use each? How would you configure them? When would you stop using one and start using another?
Scout
======
Scouts don't seem to be useful for much of anything from a warship standpoint. They're too slow to even reach a target, and even if they do, only a light, unshielded ship could possibly succumb.
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Agreed. I have never considered scouts to be fight worthy anyways, whatever the circumstances. Do do make good fodder though (chaff).
| Quote: |
Destroyer
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Early DDs look great for escorting colonising/replenishing fleets (both from a fuel and defense perspective). Whether weapons tech is at 0 (laser), 3 (x-ray), or 6 (Yak), a destroyer's 200dp of armor makes it robust and it's fairly configurable.
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Agreed as long as we are talking about an interceptor which is not intended for mainline combat. Mainline combat should be either reserved to FF or the design should be completely different, sacrificing BS for power. As always, number can overcome stronger enemies... But since this is very early game and it is your first interceptor ship, if you end up building a big score of them you are obviously doing something wrong anyways.
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Question: Do you normally place two or three beams on a DD hull? If two, what do you put in the GP slot?
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If you have RS, shields are going to help you better. Ships which will try and succeed at running away from you won't either be able to fight back or will have so minimal power it is not a problem, so maximum power might not be a good idea even for non RS. Since resource cost is the biggest problem here, I'd probably lean on going with a shield on the GS slot. Unless I really need speed to intercept something with high BS, in which case adding a second thruster help.
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Question: At what weapons tech do you normally starting building up Construction in order to get to frigates and cruisers?
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Short answer: there is no good answer for this. It depends of what is happening in your game. Long answer: another player once told me that they always preferred to act on what they got right now rather than what they might get later. What this mean is: sure, you could wait for Colloidals and build only one CC design from there if you wait a
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Sun, 03 July 2011 06:56 |
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| magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| goober wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 20:08 |
Agree with magicmushroom on this:
DD + 2 FP + 2 best beams: usually red laser (yaki if -f perhaps or WM).
Extra fuel to get you there quickly + protection from any last ditch effort to stop you. If they have time to see you and respond, perhaps the problem isn't the escorts but your planning. Planet hopping, aiming for incorrect planet and then zooming off to grab planet of choice are obvious ploys. These may work better if you start by always accompanying your colony fleets with escorts from the start, even if overkill. If you suddenly have escorts in tow, then the opposition will ask themselves why.
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Well, most races need Con 3 to move, and DDs make good fuel boosters for races without IFE. Just dump a couple of hundred resources into weap to get the x-ray (two lasers won't kill a scout in one hit)
[Updated on: Sun, 03 July 2011 06:57] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Sun, 03 July 2011 08:54 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
The answer to your question changes with (nearly) every tech level you or your opponent manage to gain. But generally speaking the colloidal FF isn't an early skirmisher anymore.
What I've used in my games for early skirmishers is:
- just a few DDs with 3*blue lasers, QJ-5 engine and "attack unarmed/any" battle order to disrupt opponent's pop freight and skirmish with his escorting DD with 2 red lasers,
- 2*red laser DDs with FM and 2 man-jets as interceptors,
- 3*red laser FFs with 2 shields and DLL-7 as first real skirmisher,
- DD with 3*sappers to sap opponents' FF skirmishers,
- 2*bazooka 1*shield DD as first sweeper/skirmisher.
The DD with 1 colloidal, 1 sapper, 1 shield and AD-8 was usually used in early mid game as an all-purpose skirmisher and sweeper.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Sun, 03 July 2011 08:57] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Sun, 03 July 2011 13:59 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| goober wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 03:08 |
Agree with magicmushroom on this:
DD + 2 FP + 2 best beams: usually red laser (yaki if -f perhaps or WM).
Extra fuel to get you there quickly + protection from any last ditch effort to stop you.
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I've been using this design for escorting my colonisers/replenishers, but I'm finding them too slow to go after enemy shipping. I've ended up with an additional variant with two MJs to go after overly aggressive neighbors. As someone else mentioned, ship slots aren't an issue at this phase of the game, so I guess that's OK. I was curious to see if anyone had a single design that could excel at both roles. 
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If they have time to see you and respond, perhaps the problem isn't the escorts but your planning. Planet hopping, aiming for incorrect planet and then zooming off to grab planet of choice are obvious ploys.
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Now you're talking tactics. Good points, and I see many players doing this.
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These may work better if you start by always accompanying your colony fleets with escorts from the start, even if overkill. If you suddenly have escorts in tow, then the opposition will ask themselves why.
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I hadn't thought of that. At least until they engage, the enemy may even think you're using the DDs as boosters. Although they probably don't have the same mass.
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Mon, 04 July 2011 04:18 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Void wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 19:53 |
For those of us not quite there yet, is there a document that spells out which BS you'll need to catch an enemy based on its BS and your range of weapons? Or is this best left to an exercise for the reader...
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More the later. Quite often I count on my fingers, one hand for attacker and the other one for defender. 
Engine combat speed you have marked with blue number if you press F2 and look at engines, but it has quite a formula behind. In short  :
- QJ-5 gives max combat speed 0.75,
- FM, Settler's Delight, LH-6 and RHRS-6 (prop-9 scoop) give max combat speed 1.0,
- DLL-7 and prop-8 scoop give max combat speed 1.25,
- AD-8 and and prop-9 scoop give max combat speed 1.5,
- TGD (prop-9) and prop-12 scoop give max combat speed 1.75, and
- IS-10, TS-10 and prop-16 and prop-20 scoop give max combat speed 2.0.
- Each maneuvering jet gives +0.25 speed, and each overthruster gives +0.50.
- Combat speed is maxed at 2.50. Min combat speed is 0.50.
- ship weight (cargo included) decreases combat speed, but the treshold is 70kT * number_of_engines. E.g. a ship with single FM will move 1 square each combat round (speed 1.0) if it weights less than 70kT. A CC with two FMs needs to be less than 140kT to move 1 each round. A BB with 4 FMs needs to weight less than 280kT. If a weight of a single-FM ship is 70kT or more but below 140kT, it will move with speed 0.75. If it weights 140kT or more it will move with combat speed of 0.50.
- some "important" combat speeds:
* 2.50 to disengage in 3rd round, so the opponent needs missiles in a 1+ speed ship, or R-3 weapons on an interceptor with 2.25 speed to catch you,
* 1.75 to hit the orbital with R3 weapons in 2nd combat round or last row in 3rd,
* 1.50 to hit the last row with R3 weapons in 3rd combat round. Having a mainline beamer slower than this means asking for trouble.
* 1 or less speed for chaff. Having more means chaff could come in range of R2 (gattling) weapons in the first combat round and die before opponent's missile ships would fire.
- More about movement you can find out in Stars! help - Guts - Guts of combat.
Just a tiny bit: for a ship to disengage, it needs to do 7 "regular" moves on battle board, then with 8th it disengages. An interceptor needs to move across the battle board to reach the last row where the target (likely) is and fire at it. With both combat speeds of 1 the interceptor needs 7 moves to reach 8th column (it started at 1st column) and with range-1 weapon has 1 shot at the disegaging target at the 9th column. That's the theory.
But combat moves are't always "smart", and very often the interceptor will not go straigt for the target. So you need either a faster interceptor or a longer ranged weapon. Here comes the ship design I'll not discus.
In short, indeed.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Mon, 04 July 2011 05:50] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Tue, 26 July 2011 01:59 |
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| Void wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 21:16 |
It's very early game - first 20 years, max - and you're pushing outwards to define your territory.
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Noted: first 20 years.
This should mean you have got only starting tech or researched only the necessary tech like con 3/4, elec 2.
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What ships do you use to ensure your colonising/replenishing fleets arrive safely
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Considering the colonizing fleet has to go quite a away and into potentially dangerous territory:- 1 Col Privateer: col module, 2 fuel pods, 2 shields, fuel mizer
- 2 Cargo Privateers: 2/1 cargo pods, 1/2 fuel pods, 1 shield, fuel mizer
- 1-2 Scouts: fuel mizer, fuel pod, rhino scanner
- 1-2 Escort Destroyer: fuel mizer, 1-2 fuel pods, 2-3 laser (depending on the fuel needed)
- alternatively I use 1-3 "standard scout hunters" (see below)
If the enemy's base is closer to your target planet and he sees your fleet, mostly he'll be able to beat whatever early escorts you send. So the best defense is still stealth by planet hopping and speed. The escorts are mainly to fence off the randomly encountered opponent's scout hunters or escorts.
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and to engage the errant enemy scout, coloniser, or transport? I'm not looking to attack planets with these; just engage ships.
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Standard scout hunter vs scouts with BS 1:
* DD, fuel mizer, 2 xray, 1 overthruster, 1 fuel pod
* DD, fuel mizer, 2 laser, 1 overthruster, 1 fuel pod
Overthruster and fuel mizer add up to BS 1.25 and gives you a near 100% chance to really catch the scouts. And still a chance to get scouts with the daddy long leg 7 engine (IT's starting scouts, or JoaT's starting scouts with IFE or CE and tech 4 box).
vs Warmonger
If there is a warmonger in the game, most likely his scouts will have a battle speed of 1.5 (1 + 1/2 bonus). That's fast. His scout will leave the battle field on the 5th round, so you need to shoot latest in the 4th round (2-1-2-1-out) and with 1-range lasers this means a battle speed of 1.75 (2-2-1-2). Early on you can get this only with 2 overthruster + daddy long leg 7 engine + 2 xray. Until 2420 this is rather high tech: prop5-weap3-en2. Usually only available to ITs.
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Tue, 26 July 2011 02:01 |
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| Quote: |
Question: At what weapons tech do you normally starting building up Construction in order to get to frigates and cruisers?
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Con 4 for privateers and docks has priority. Except I need to research the rhino scanner first. No good to be blind.
But considering the tech 3 box is checked, afterwards I go straight to weap 8 for bazookas, range-2, and the m70-bomb.
Years ago then I researched con 9 for cruisers. But nowadays I think:
en3 - weap 8 - con 4 together with the fuel mizer and I feel ready to shock my neighbour with a fleet to conquere his HW with a sufficient horde of:
* destroyer, fuel mizer, 2 bazookas, shield, fuel pod
* 41-46 mini bomber, fuel mizer, 2 m70-bombs
Frigates are superb in space battles but get into problems when attacking a planet protected by dock or base with torps.
Thus, if I am in the offensive, I rather build destroyers and bombers. But if you are in the defense against a horde of destroyers, frigates may save you.
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