Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Early skirmishers
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Tue, 26 July 2011 10:13   |
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| Quote:Altruist |
But if you are in the defense against a horde of destroyers, frigates may save you.
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| iztok wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 10:06 |
But those FFs have a nice counter: a DD with 3 sappers. Those two DD designs working together are surprisingly effective and [...]
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Well, there is a counter for everything.
But if your frigates have stopped the approaching big bad DD-fleet with bombers heading for your HW... that's good for you.
The counter of the counter: the sap-DD needs research of weap-9, production of sapper-DDs, getting them to the front... 3 years minimum.
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Tue, 26 July 2011 15:44 |
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 iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Altruist wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 16:13 |
But if your frigates have stopped the approaching big bad DD-fleet with bombers heading for your HW... that's good for you.
The counter of the counter: the sap-DD needs research of weap-9, production of sapper-DDs, getting them to the front... 3 years minimum.
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You need to put that "hipothetical" discussion in a real game. The "big bad DD-fleed" didn't magically appear ante portas of victim's HW, but had to fight its way to it. It quite likely "vistited" one, two or more of victim's planets before coming close to his HW, so IMO the attacker already had those "3 years minimum", as the defender had those 2 years to build and collect the defensive FF fleet (assuming gates, which IMX again are rare in the "bazooka DD" timeframe).
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Tue, 26 July 2011 15:45] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Tue, 26 July 2011 16:27 |
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| goober |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 175
Registered: December 2003
Location: +10 | |
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| iztok wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 18:06 |
Hi!
| Quote: |
But if you are in the defense against a horde of destroyers, frigates may save you.
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But those FFs have a nice counter: a DD with 3 sappers. Those two DD designs working together are surprisingly effective and are beaten only with CCs or colloidal FFs, which aren't exacty early tech.
So after the attacker has build his bunch of bazooka DDs he immediately researches sappers and builds some DDs with them to be ready for "counterdesign" FFs his victim will build.
BR, Iztok
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If the FF stack is big enough, especially with RS, you need a lot of sappers to break through the stacked shielding. I've fielded FF's (TGFS + Wolverine Shields + PB's) against BC's in the past, even though they were using sappers too and come out top ... ironically perhaps, my counter to all the extra shielding available on a BC was FF sappers.
This was an unusual situation however ... slow tech, weap/con expensive, primitive style game. The FF's were gateable, the BC's not etc. Extensive testbedding indicated I simply got better value for money (due to Deltas being relatively far away, due to BET, and no missiles allowed).
Goober.Report message to a moderator
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| (long:) DDs vs frigates - Operational Stars by Example |
Tue, 26 July 2011 22:42 |
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| Altruist wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 16:13 |
But if your frigates have stopped the approaching big bad DD-fleet with bombers heading for your HW... that's good for you.
The counter of the counter: the sap-DD needs research of weap-9, production of sapper-DDs, getting them to the front... 3 years minimum.
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| iztok wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 21:44 |
You need to put that "hipothetical" discussion in a real game. The "big bad DD-fleed" didn't magically appear ante portas of victim's HW, but had to fight its way to it. It quite likely "vistited" one, two or more of victim's planets before coming close to his HW, so IMO the attacker already had those "3 years minimum", as the defender had those 2 years to build and collect the defensive FF fleet (assuming gates, which IMX again are rare in the "bazooka DD" timeframe).
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Hehe, actually that wasn't "hipothetical" but right out of my last game.
The "big bad DD-fleed" DID magically appear ante portas of victim's HW and conquered it within 1 turn. By planet hopping it made a devasting circle thru another 2 of this player's planets. He gave up.
Then this fleet of bazooka-DDs attacked the next enemy, who had a stronger economy and better tech in weap, con and energy. I won nevertheless due to several horrible mistakes on his side. Since we talk about strat and ship design, let me elaborate a bit because it was a true didactic play (the game was slow tech, so we are already past 2430).
2433-36: DD Fleet defeats first enemy, returns to base to refuel and for reinforcements, starting point for attack vs next enemy. Sadly the rinforcements didn't come because they were at the opposite border needed where my neighbour showed up with a fleet.
1st mistake: The next enemy was JoaT (as I) but he did not scout. So I defeated his direct neighbour without him even noticing it.
2437: His first major planet was conquered as a complete surprise to him.
Unfortunately by sheer chance he had just started to massproduce the perfect counter design to my DDs: Jevon FF "Nos non vinci" His frigates had much better shields, 50% more fire power, higher initiative and were even slightly cheaper. Additionally he had just outfitted his starbases with gates.
The good thing: my other neighbour's fleet had retreated, my reinforcements were late but at least available now. Taking 20% losses they stormed northwards at warp-10 to join my DD fleet.
For comparison reasons here images of the ships involved now and later on:
Comparison DD baz vs Jevons FF "Nos non vinci"
2438: Next planet conquered. This one my opponent had just conquered from my first enemy. No starbase nor gate yet. So he had no chance to defend the planet. My reinforcements arrive. Fleet consists of 129 DD baz now.
2nd mistake: He had 21 frigates there and left them there. They were destroyed by my DD fleet without losses on my side. The right thing would had been to move them away to build up and unite a strong enough fleet to kill my DD fleet.
3rd mistake: To my surprise his major planets were NOT massproducing his perfect frigate design. I guess, instead he researched weap 9 or 10. A very bad underestimation of the threat and misjudgement of how much time he had still available.
2439: Next target planet was 94-ly away and my fleet made a warp-10-move, taking the losses to not loose speed and initiative, 117 DD baz arrive. Probably the warp-10-move did surprise him. The defending starbase was empty except for a gate. And, indeed, he had reasearched weap-10 and a new ship-of-line was in production: Jevon FF "ad sum jam forte", same design as before but now with range-3 colloidal phaser. My fleet is in a splendid fork position now to attack his HW or another "just" big one. I decide to play it save: building a gate on the newly conquered planet within 2 years and to attack the "just" big one because his HW he'll surely defend with all he has (probably quite a lot by now).
4th mistake: When a warp-10 move i
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[Updated on: Wed, 27 July 2011 09:10] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early skirmishers |
Wed, 27 July 2011 09:10 |
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| Void |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| [email |
m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 16:20]Hmmm, if we're going to call FF hordes "early skirmishers", then we should perhaps call the 1-range Beamer DDs "initial skirmishers".
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You say that as if you have a different characterization in mind for FF hordes. Do tell?
Cheers,
Void
[Updated on: Wed, 27 July 2011 10:14] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: (long:) DDs vs frigates - Operational Stars by Example |
Wed, 27 July 2011 13:23 |
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| Altruist wrote on Tue, 26 July 2011 19:42 |
The "big bad DD-fleet"...
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| Void wrote on Wed, 27 July 2011 18:33 |
Was the decision to use DDs instead of FFs due to constrained tech - you simply didn't have Const 6 yet? Or was there another factor that led you to believe DDs were the better choice, tactically?
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If I may quote myself from the "Hints & Tips" in the Fledgling Admirals private forum:| Quote: |
Some notes on your first main planetary attack ship's hull and weaponry
1) Yakis are great weapons... for space fights. Never try to use them for planetary conquest because weap 7 with blackjacks (power:90, on a station with range:0+1) is too dangerously close for your enemy to reach and can too easily kill your attack fleet.
2) Using beta-torps instead of the range-1 yaki laser let's you trade range for power. A yaki blasts away with 26 damage, a beta torp causes a max of 12 damage with a lousy accuracy of 45%. In practice this means you need the element of surprise when you attack an enemy and then a beta-DD-fleet can be devasting. But if your enemy has time to prepare, ressource for ressource a fleet of yaki-DDs against your beta-DDs will always win. Heck, actually often enough a fleet of yakis half the size and even smaller is still strong enough to teach your beta-fleet a deadly lesson.
3) Range 2 Bazookas are the first true weapons of choice for planetary conquest wether mounted on DDs or CCs. To get the m70-bomb at wep-8 is an additional goody.
4) FFs are great for space battles but tricky vs bases due to their low base armour and vulnerability to torps. To consider FFs as the main warship of your first planetary attack fleet it seems necessay to be WM (for faster speed) or IS (for croby sharmor). While having CE and prop cheap might get you the equivalent to the WM's battle speed bonus, this comes at a price (of researching prop while others might research weap) while the WM has the battle speed bonus for free.
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| Re: (long:) DDs vs frigates - Operational Stars by Example |
Wed, 27 July 2011 13:46 |
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As I wrote above: I would use FFs only in a very special situation to attack planets. For sure not as the main combat ship of the line with which I intend to attack upto 10 planets in a row.
So even with con-6 I'd still build DDs for this purpose.
If I intend to build a DD-warfleet, it would be stupid to reasearch more than con 5 for gates. Every tech field not needed for the attack but reasearched is a loss of time and gives the opponent more time to advance and prepare.
[Updated on: Wed, 27 July 2011 13:47] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: (long:) DDs vs frigates - Operational Stars by Example |
Wed, 27 July 2011 15:41 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Quote: |
Was the decision to use DDs instead of FFs due to constrained tech - you simply didn't have Const 6 yet?
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In any game the con-3 DD offers an excellent protection vs. early weapons. Just the DD's 200 HP armor can withstand 7 hits from yak or colloidal. But in slow-tech games for the "price" of researching FFs at expensive con-6 one can buy quite a lot of DDs, without a need to invest in tech-6 shield to allow those FFs to fight at equal protection.
The DD is also not susceptible to Beta torps, which are the first deterrent of FFs, and are usually available even earlier than the FFs are.
So the DD is usually the first ship of choice to remove a slower_than_you neighbour. If those DDs had bazookas for weapons, are they then used as quite good and cheap, even throw-away sweepers, so they're not a lost investion when tech surpasses them.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Wed, 27 July 2011 15:44] Report message to a moderator
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Was your choice to use DDs instead of FFs driven by lack of Const 6 tech?