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[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2011 04:31]

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gible wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 19:28

magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 20:30 One of the bigger issues with HP is that they don't get a vast deal more resources than HG (HG tops out around 3212, HP gets around 3905), but have to wait quite a while longer for it - and, crucially, have to wait for that period to build up new planets (or LBUed planets) as well. WTF? 3212res is 100% maxed pop+fact output for the "standard" 12/x/16 HG sure, but where did you get 3905 from? Any HP of worth will likely have a max output of 4500+ if not 5000+ and JOAT+OBRM (at 15/x/25) can reach 6270res - nearly double the HG.

No, a JoaT+OBRM HP with full 15/x/25 factories will only reach 5478 resources (only 40% from pop, remember).

I was assuming 15/x/21 with OBRM but not JoaT and 1/2500 pop eff, since 21 is the second breakpoint of factory number and getting over it is very difficult without severely compromising your hab IIRC.

Even a 15/x/25 non-JoaT will only reach 4565.

I'm afraid you have rather overestimated the HP.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2011 06:04]

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 21:58

No, a JoaT+OBRM HP with full 15/x/25 factories will only reach 5478 resources (only 40% from pop, remember). I was assuming 15/x/21 with OBRM but not JoaT and 1/2500 pop eff, since 21 is the second breakpoint of factory number and getting over it is very difficult without severely compromising your hab IIRC. Even a 15/x/25 non-JoaT will only reach 4565. I'm afraid you have rather overestimated the HP.

No, you just have to keep the 1/1000 pop ratio. eg:
JOAT
NRSE,OBRM,NAS,RS
0.31-3.2/-120-120/20-80 (1in4) 15%
1/1000 15/9/25/-g 10/5/20
all exp res
3 pts left.
I haven't played or tested this, but its a starting point.

Shrinking the habs a bit to 1in5 and the facts to 21 as you suggest (still gets you 5478 max res(4565 non-JOAT) and you can get to 207 pts left which can buy:

• cost 7 facts & 3 mines or
  
• cheap weaps or
  
• 19% growth or
  
• IS + TT or
  
• no NAS+132pt penalty
  

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gible wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 21:07

No, you just have to keep the 1/1000 pop ratio. eg: JOAT NRSE,OBRM,NAS,RS 0.31-3.2/-120-120/20-80 (1in4) 15% 1/1000 15/9/25/-g 10/5/20 all exp res 3 pts left. I haven't played or tested this, but its a starting point. Shrinking the habs a bit to 1in5 and the facts to 21 as you suggest (still gets you 5478 max res(4565 non-JOAT) and you can get to 207 pts left which can buy: cost 7 facts & 3 mines or cheap weaps or 19% growth or IS + TT or no NAS+132pt penalty

Hmm, we seem to be discussing a "hybrid" rather than a "true" HP, here (since their defining attribute is 1/2500 pop resources).

The main insanities of what you've given are...
1) the horribly low growth
2) cost 5 mines, and not enough to make your factories useful
3) all expensive (okay, admittedly no problem if Nubs are available before conflict starts, but that's a slooooow game)
... though I'm fairly sure you would have noticed those.

With only 21 facts you could get 11/3/20 mines and 16%, but you're not going to get all three fixed properly without selling your hab down to something silly like 1/11 non-immune.

Oh, and if you drop too much hab, the HGs will pull ahead of you again in resources/territory.

[Updated on: Sat, 02 July 2011 07:46]

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 23:44

Hmm, we seem to be discussing a "hybrid" rather than a "true" HP, here (since their defining attribute is 1/2500 pop resources). The main insanities of what you've given are... 1) the horribly low growth 2) cost 5 mines, and not enough to make your factories useful 3) all expensive (okay, admittedly no problem if Nubs are available before conflict starts, but that's a slooooow game) ... though I'm fairly sure you would have noticed those. With only 21 facts you could get 11/3/20 mines and 16%, but you're not going to get all three fixed properly without selling your hab down to something silly like 1/11 non-immune. Oh, and if you drop too much hab, the HGs will pull ahead of you again in resources/territory.

"true" HP must have 1/2500? I very disagree. HP is just a style that aims for long term growth.

Art Lathrop wrote

Hyper-production races try to maximize their growth over the long term. They often have narrow habitat ranges (1 in 6 to 1 in 10), total terraforming, a slower growth rate (16% or 17%), advanced remote mining, and high factory settings. The danger of playing an HP race is that you need to survive with most of your planets until the late stages of the game

I agree that people often take 1/2500 to pay for it, but its not required. The key point of HP is long term - you're not aiming to beat everyone now but to maximise your eventual potential. The hard part is surviving long enough to do so. Like AR, an HP needs diplomacy. (How scary is HG CA+ -f IT+HP JOAT+AR team?)
To address your specific concerns.
1) HP typically don't need, nor can cope with the highest growth rates - building colony+transport ships detracts from the all important factory building.
2) especially for HP cheap mines are less important than more mines - late game = mineral general mineral crunch when more mines trumps better mines (and cheap doesn't even get a look in).
3) aside from trimming to get weap cheap or weap+con normal, again...late game...have res done or have powerhouse to catch up.
4) regarding dropping habs, actually using/inhabiting planets is not the same as controlling territory - tho as an aside, an HP also gets much better results from red planets - 66k effective pop can operate 165 facts and generate 314res, overpop to 198k can push that to 380res

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Void wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 04:43

HP race designs (1/2500 pop efficiency with mondo factory settings)

The 1/2500 would be the extreme case.

Quote:

what kind of set up would need to exist for folks to consider an HP race design to be viable?

HPs need two things: time and room. Playing in a decent-sized field with 50+ planets per player helps. Having an HG or QS ally helps too. Everything else is just surviving until the econ matures and trumps everything else.

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 10:30

One of the bigger issues with HP is that they don't get a vast deal more resources than HG (HG tops out around 3212, HP gets around 3905), but have to wait quite a while longer for it - and, crucially, have to wait for that period to build up new planets (or LBUed planets) as well.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions.

My 1st HPs all had 5500+ Res per 100% planet at the very least. With that kind of power, even Alchemy becomes useful. And the biggest factor in (re)building a world is Germ, which can be transported from suitable places.

Quote:

A game setup that encouraged waiting quite a while after expansion stopped before serious war would likely advantage HP.

Yup. Early wars hurt HPs the most.

Quote:

they can't take advantage of conquered territory nearly as quickly, and so have serious trouble winning solo.

I never had that kind of trouble!

Please note that most HPs are JoaTs, CAs, ISs, or ITs, none of which is known for being slow.

Quote:

More planets alone won't help HP, it will tend to hinder them, because an HG can expand faster.

More planets alone is the biggest factor for HP-style play. Long-term Resources, not expansion speed (or lack thereof) is what defines the HP. In the time the HG takes to grab a decent number of worlds, the HP can grab less than half and still have more Resources.

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 11:58

....getting over it is very difficult without severely compromising your hab IIRC.

Wide habs are for HGs or QSs. HPs can have as low as 1-in-10 initial habs and still be quite playable.

Not for the faint of heart, tho.

Quote:

I'm afraid you have rather overestimated the HP.

I'm afraid HPs need more math skillz and micromanagement devotion than most people want to spend these days.

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m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 06:38

Void wrote what kind of set up would need to exist for folks to consider an HP race design to be viable? HPs need two things: time and room. Playing in a decent-sized field with 50+ planets per player helps. Having an HG or QS ally helps too. Everything else is just surviving until the econ matures and trumps everything else.

Why do they need so many planets? Not questioning it, just looking to understand the reasoning. Is it the narrow hab - playing in the smaller galaxies makes hab draw a little too important. But if everyone had fewer planets, say 25, why wouldn't that work?

Cheers,
Void

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Void wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 16:59

if everyone had fewer planets, say 25, why wouldn't that work?

Because then the greedy HG and QS types would reach the HP's space too soon!

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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 00:03

Wide habs are for HGs or QSs. HPs can have as low as 1-in-10 initial habs and still be quite playable. Not for the faint of heart, tho.

1/10 initial 0i hab gives what final, again? You'd need at least 1/3 final to have any advantage over an HG.

Quote:

I'm afraid HPs need more math skillz and micromanagement devotion than most people want to spend these days.

Well, what pop-resource settings do YOU use to make an HP work?

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m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 09:23

Void wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 16:59 if everyone had fewer planets, say 25, why wouldn't that work? Because then the greedy HG and QS types would reach the HP's space too soon!

Are you saying it's a function of planets or space, as in distance? If I'm an HG, I'm going to push as far into my enemy's space as possible, regardless of how many good planets are closer to home. Or maybe I'm playing too many blitz games...

Cheers,
Void

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 19:17

1/10 initial 0i hab gives what final, again? You'd need at least 1/3 final to have any advantage over an HG.

Yup, IIRC, 1-in-4 or even 1-in-3. But you seem to imply that every HG can live in all planets?

Quote:

Well, what pop-resource settings do YOU use to make an HP work?

Mine have always had 1/1000. But other people have succesfully fielded 1/2500.

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Void wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 19:39

Are you saying it's a function of planets or space, as in distance? If I'm an HG, I'm going to push as far into my enemy's space as possible, regardless of how many good planets are closer to home. Or maybe I'm playing too many blitz games...

Blitzes may have biased you...

In a regular game you'd be mad to rush to attack before having secured a fair number of planets for your own pop. While you were busy clobbering the hapless HP next-door, those HGs and HPs not involved in early wars would grow beyond your ability to catch up and you'd be doomed.

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m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 20:52

Blitzes may have biased you...

I had a sense

I'll also resist the temptation to ask more questions about that in this thread and do it somewhere else.

Cheers,
Void

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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 13:48

magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 July 2011 19:17 1/10 initial 0i hab gives what final, again? You'd need at least 1/3 final to have any advantage over an HG. Yup, IIRC, 1-in-4 or even 1-in-3. But you seem to imply that every HG can live in all planets? Quote: Well, what pop-resource settings do YOU use to make an HP work? Mine have always had 1/1000. But other people have succesfully fielded 1/2500.

I've played 1/2500 HP races successfully. You can even get 25k by 2450 with them.

This is a very easy play HP JoaT that I got a solo victory with in a large universe. I know it breaks a lot of rules ...

IFE/ISB/NRSE/OBRM/NAS/LSP/RS

1/3 habs

0.53 - 6.08g
-84 - 172C
32 - 92mR

PGR 19%

1/2500
15/7/19
checked

11/3/19

W cheap, rest expensive.

A 100% world gets 4290 res (12/9/14 facs gets 3537 res) . Not fantastic. But you do get a lot of planets to work with and ISB + IFE to boot. Hence, very easy to work with.

Play like a HG and expand quickly to set borders that are good for you and get NAP's and intercolonisation rights. The opponents breathe a sigh of relief that you are not going to run over them and give them a chance to grow. Then you grow much bigger than they ever expected

Folks don't pick on you early because you look like a HG race.

I wouldn't play this race now.

I wouldn't need the ISB and I'd be looking for con cheap too along with 12/4/19 mine settings as a minimum due to the need for late game germ e.g. PGR 18%, ISB and RS not checked and a slight hab tweak will do it OR drop to 17% PGR to lose the LSP and keep RS.

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Oh, I've gotten 25k with an HP race too. That was a TT CA, though.

So, I went and ran a vast amount of hab calculations (thanks craebild for that habcalc tool), and came to the following conclusions:

1) 1/1000 15/9/21 HP does not work. The resources you get from a given territory (assuming weapons normal and 16% growth with LSP) are less than those the Feds get - so why not just play as them or a tweak of them instead?

2) 1/2500 15/7/25 HP can work, though I stand by what I said about you needing to survive with a similar-sized territory to HGs until quite late.

3) The Feds are a far better "long-game" race than I thought they were, with full terraforming resources/space rivalling 3i HE.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 July 2011 05:23]

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[Updated on: Sun, 03 July 2011 08:26]

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 11:22

1) 1/1000 15/9/21 HP does not work. The resources you get from a given territory (assuming weapons normal and 16% growth with LSP) are less than those the Feds get

Care to elaborate? Was it a hab problem, or a slowness of growth?

Quote:

2) 1/2500 15/7/25 HP can work, though I stand by what I said about you needing to survive with a similar-sized territory to HGs until quite late.

Well, every viable race should get their fair share of territory, and be able to hold it, even if it doesn't actually inhabit every world in it.

Quote:

3) The Feds are a far better "long-game" race than I thought they were, with full terraforming resources/space rivalling 3i HE.

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m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 21:53

magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 03 July 2011 11:22 1) 1/1000 15/9/21 HP does not work. The resources you get from a given territory (assuming weapons normal and 16% growth with LSP) are less than those the Feds get Care to elaborate? Was it a hab problem, or a slowness of growth?

Hab. Feds get 99% of planets habitable, initial 1 in 10 only gets to 1 in 2 - and you're getting less than twice their resources and significantly less than twice their minerals per planet.

I didn't even have to test once I noticed that.

And that was with 16% growth, LSP, and weapons normal IIRC. You can't get much more out of it (not to mention, the Feds can be tweaked for significantly more resources).

Quote:

Well, every viable race should get their fair share of territory, and be able to hold it, even if it doesn't actually inhabit every world in it.

Whether one does, on the other hand, is another matter. Surely you agree that a 1/2500 HP has more trouble with early attacks than an HG would.

Quote:

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