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| How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Fri, 24 June 2011 20:52  |
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 Void |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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Hi folks,
This came up in another thread for one of the 2011 Dueling Championship round 1 games, and I'm repeating this post from the Dueling Forum since no one there knew the answer. OK, that's probably not true. More accurately, no one posted an answer.
Here's the question:
When identifying the five (non-HW) scoring planets, is there any judgment or decision making process involved in identifying these planets? Or are they simply the planets most proximate to the four corners and the centermost planet (proximate to x=1400, y=1400)? A simple application of the Pythagorean Theorem would solve that problem, except in the rare instance of a tie.
Or does the host (or whomever is setting up the universe) take into account starting positions to determine a more equitable center planet, for instance, that may not be the true center-most planet in the galaxy?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Fri, 24 June 2011 21:51  |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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As I'm sure you noticed, the author of the 2011 Championship Rules does spell this out:
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e.ii Five of the seven target worlds will be identified to both participants. Those will be, respectively, the four worlds closest to each corner of the map and ths single world closest to the center. The Administrator's decision on which worlds is FINAL and BINDING.
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I ask because the 2007 Dueling Championship administrator, Altruist, chose a different approach. In an additional note about the final, he stated:
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the important center-score-planet Zanzibar is almost exactly inbetween both contrahents (that is, both players HWs)
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The center planet is so important, Altruists approach strikes me as more equitable than simply selecting the planet closest to the galaxy's midpoint, especially if the distance to both players' HWs is drastically different.
So, perhaps I'm less looking for a 'what is the rule' and more 'what should be the rule'?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 03:52 |
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| magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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If you select the planet closest to the midpoint of the HWs, that tells both players where the other's HW is. Can you say "PP"?
[Updated on: Sat, 25 June 2011 03:53] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 05:12 |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 25 June 2011 19:52 |
If you select the planet closest to the midpoint of the HWs, that tells both players where the other's HW is. Can you say "PP"?
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Extrapolating back from the "center" planet will usually give a few possible HW locations, and in a duel any PP could throw a packet across the actual center to find the HW anyway.
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 11:53 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 25 June 2011 00:52 |
If you select the planet closest to the midpoint of the HWs, that tells both players where the other's HW is. Can you say "PP"?
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You just had to throw a monkey wrench into the works, didn't you? 
Fair point. That said...
- How many people play PPs in duels? I've yet to run into one, but I've got very limited experience. Reviewing the Duel Championship postings, though, I don't see many.
- Equidistant does not necessarily mean on the same axis.
- The person setting up the game could take into account a PP player and ensure the other's HW location wasn't immediately obvious
You do raise a good point that regardless of player PRTs, the opponents HW location shouldn't be immediately obvious. To mitigate that a little, perhaps equidistant is too strong a goal. Let's go for an equal number of warp-9 jumps.
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 12:10 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| Void wrote on Fri, 24 June 2011 18:51 |
The center planet is so important, Altruists approach strikes me as more equitable than simply selecting the planet closest to the galaxy's midpoint, especially if the distance to both players' HWs is drastically different.
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Let me ask a different question: Do you agree the distance from each player's HW to the center planet is important? Should it be fairly equitable?
I ask because in a duel with Altruist, I started with my HW a mere 117 ly from the planet geographically closest to the center (and the one chosen as the center planet). Altruist's HW, on the other hand, was 324 ly from the center planet. That's a difference of two warp-8 jumps versus four full warp-9 jumps. The chosen center planet was at (1419,1407), but another planet at (1355,1355) existed that would have placed us both at three jumps away (242 ly versus 194 ly).
I contend the 207 ly disparity from the center planet was a leading cause of my victory over Altruist. He tried to colonize a planet close to the center very early, but due to my proximity I was able to easily deny him.
That's the problem I'm looking to solve in terms of duel setup. Personally, I think it's a bigger problem than the possibility of a player choosing PP.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 13:06 |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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This great disparity in HW distances from the center planet has a lot to do with the person creating the game files. Probably didn't do a good check or enough regens to come up with something more balanced. Given that CCMaster keeps reminding people of his "no time" problems, I suspect he might have done a rush job. But I could be wrong, and this is just a possibility.
Myself. If I were doing this sort of thing, I would use Autohotkey program to record my first game setup, and then just automate all regens/recreations of new games. Just a couple mouse clicks, wait for results, and then check the planets, to me that would be much easier and faster, in the case of having to do lots of setups and possible regens for more ideal universe results.
I've done this sort of thing with test games. For example: I have a saved recording that goes through the winning conditions screen and automatically sets it up the same for each new game, with my favorite settings for test games, with just a couple of mouse clicks, versus having to go in there and click all those settings each time I have to start over or do a new game.
BlueTurbit Country/RockReport message to a moderator
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 13:15 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| BlueTurbit wrote on Sat, 25 June 2011 10:06 |
This great disparity in HW distances from the center planet has a lot to do with the person creating the game files. Probably didn't do a good check or enough regens to come up with something more balanced.
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A possibility, to be sure. What I wonder is if the host was even thinking about HW proximity to the center planet. As a duel player, I would feel a lot better if there was a set of guidelines used to determine galaxy fairness. Not necessarily quantitative, although that would be nice, but at least a list of, shall we say, considerations.
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Myself. If I were doing this sort of thing, I would use Autohotkey program to record my first game setup, and then just automate all regens/recreations of new games. Just a couple mouse clicks, wait for results, and then check the planets, to me that would be much easier and faster, in the case of having to do lots of setups and possible regens for more ideal universe results.
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Autohotkey...sounds like a decent idea to minimize MM for players! If I was setting up a duel for people, I might consider setting up a game.def file and wrapping it in a .bat file to generate a dozen or galaxies at a time.
As I think about this, automatically spitting out the .x and both .p files would make it easy for a simple program to cycle through and, if not select the best galaxy, throw out ones that have too great a disparity in some measure or another.
Aside from center-planet proximity to the HW, what other considerations should a host look for when setting up a duel?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sat, 25 June 2011 13:27 |
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| BlueTurbit |
| Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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| Quote: |
I might consider setting up a game.def file and wrapping it in a .bat file to generate a dozen or galaxies at a time.
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That might be another good way. I use Autohotkey because I'm used to doing lots of repetitive tasks with it on my computer.
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Sun, 26 June 2011 11:45 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 26 June 2011 07:28 |
IIRC PP are generally banned in tiny unis because it's possible to deduce the other player's location to a fair degree of accuracy very quickly.
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All the duels I've played in are small universes. So less of a chance of guessing, but if the PP knows his opponent's HW is the same number of jumps away from the center planet as his own, it's probably still fairly easy to deduce.
For duels, we could either ban early HW-killer packets, which wouldn't be very fair to the PP. Or the PP would have to have evidence of the HW's location (seeing a ship emanate from a likely HW location might suffice). That's getting complicated, and requires a judgment call, which I'm not a fan of, though.
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Mon, 27 June 2011 01:16 |
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| Orange |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| Void wrote on Fri, 24 June 2011 21:51 |
I ask because the 2007 Dueling Championship administrator, Altruist, chose a different approach. In an additional note about the final, he stated:
| Quote: |
the important center-score-planet Zanzibar is almost exactly inbetween both contrahents (that is, both players HWs)
|
The center planet is so important, Altruists approach strikes me as more equitable than simply selecting the planet closest to the galaxy's midpoint, especially if the distance to both players' HWs is drastically different.
So, perhaps I'm less looking for a 'what is the rule' and more 'what should be the rule'?
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You should also note that Altruist set the center planet to 3 points -- so it is 'the key' planet while ccmaster set the center planet to 1 point. It was necessary for Altruist to be so exact with the center planet placement.
You should also consider IT races and the position of their 2nd colony. A straight HW to HW calc is not going to work for one of the most popular dueling races.
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Mon, 27 June 2011 09:03 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| Orange wrote on Sun, 26 June 2011 22:16 |
You should also note that Altruist set the center planet to 3 points -- so it is 'the key' planet while ccmaster set the center planet to 1 point. It was necessary for Altruist to be so exact with the center planet placement.
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Thanks for pointing that out - I hadn't noticed it. That certainly makes it even more important to make the center planet's location as equitable as possible. That said, even if it is worth only a single point, I'm not sure there's any reason to make it less equitable, as it's often the swing planet.
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You should also consider IT races and the position of their 2nd colony. A straight HW to HW calc is not going to work for one of the most popular dueling races.
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On one hand ITs and PPs 'pay' for the privilege, but I agree, if one player's second planet is close and the others' farther away, that's not very fair. Ideally the nearest planet for both parties would be either both their firsts or both their seconds.
Do you have some kind of criteria you'd like to see for this scenario?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Mon, 27 June 2011 10:44 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| Void wrote on Mon, 27 June 2011 09:03 |
Do you have some kind of criteria you'd like to see for this scenario?
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I believe ccmaster gen several universes and picks the one with the best fit. It is a judgment call on what is "fair".
I personally think ccmaster should just use one of the utilities to move the HW and 2nd colonies to the right places. I am fine with starting the HWs (& 2nd colonies) in the corners. In my experience, this more or less happens anyway.
There is some concern about knowing the position of your opponents HW - ok, but you can guess approximately where it is anyway from the position of your HW. It is not a big deal.
In my experience, the point planets tend not to be green - one or two might be green in any given duel. You tend to see what green planets might be good bases near the point planets and, from those bases, you try to put yourself in a good position to contest those point planets if it ever reaches that point.
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Mon, 27 June 2011 19:44 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| Void wrote on Mon, 27 June 2011 11:37 |
I really want to get away from vast disparities in starting positions. My duel with Altruist had our HWs 117 and 324ly away from the center planet, respectively. My current duel with NMid has us 350 and 200 ly away from the center planet, respectively. It makes it tough when one player is a full two warp-9 jumps farther away!
I'd hate to see the championship decided because of this level of randomness.
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If I were the 350 lyr player, I would might look at it as - Humm my opponent's HW is too close to the center and I might be able to take a stab at it instead of the center planet. I would look to see what my luck was with the planet draw -- where can I best place my strategic green colonies? I should control of one corner planet, do have control of another corner? perhaps a third corner?
What I would like to say is that the win/loss of a duel depends on many factors, but the initial distance of the center planet to the HW is minor, in my opinion. This is especially true if you battle for control of the center (the usual situation), you win the duel if you win the battles and it does not actually matter where is the center planet.
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Tue, 28 June 2011 01:21 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| Orange wrote on Mon, 27 June 2011 16:44 |
If I were the 350 lyr player, I would might look at it as - Humm my opponent's HW is too close to the center and I might be able to take a stab at it instead of the center planet.
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No comment. 
| Quote: |
What I would like to say is that the win/loss of a duel depends on many factors, but the initial distance of the center planet to the HW is minor, in my opinion. This is especially true if you battle for control of the center (the usual situation), you win the duel if you win the battles and it does not actually matter where is the center planet.
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I respect your opinion, but I don't share the view. I think the 200ly player has better options. I do agree the starting position is only one aspect of the duel, and race design and gameplay are the ultimate deciding factors, but just looking at my duel with Altruist...if our starting HW positions had been reversed, he would have easily won the game, IMHO.
I concede I may be too focused on the location of the HWs relative to the center planet. I just thought if there's a way to make it equitable, what's the downside?
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Wed, 29 June 2011 22:48 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| Void wrote on Tue, 28 June 2011 01:21 |
I think the 200ly player has better options. I do agree the starting position is only one aspect of the duel, and race design and gameplay are the ultimate deciding factors, but just looking at my duel with Altruist...if our starting HW positions had been reversed, he would have easily won the game, IMHO.
I concede I may be too focused on the location of the HWs relative to the center planet. I just thought if there's a way to make it equitable, what's the downside?
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No downside.
Re Your duel with Altruist -- that may just be better game play
I had a practice duel with ManicLurch with similar positions -- he was much closer to the center planet and with closer green planets too. I did not go for the center as I did not have nearby green planets, but there were some green planets closer to his HW/starting colonies
I instead went for those interesting green planets and the corners. I got control of 3 corners early on. It was a tough duel going the full 60 turns. I only won because ManicLurch focused too much on my green colonies closer to his HW. He spent too much time taking out my 3 green colonies near his HW center (this is one case where he won the battles but lost the war) and ended up with a nasty strategic problem for the endgame i.e. he was too far from my corner planets.
It was a good test of my race design i.e. the race was no good. I borrowed his race design instead to play in the dueling championship.
[Updated on: Wed, 29 June 2011 22:50] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: How to identify 'scoring' planets for duels |
Fri, 01 July 2011 14:21 |
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| Void wrote on Sat, 25 June 2011 03:51 |
I ask because the 2007 Dueling Championship administrator, Altruist, chose a different approach. In an additional note about the final, he stated:
| Quote: |
the important center-score-planet Zanzibar is almost exactly inbetween both contrahents (that is, both players HWs)
|
The center planet is so important, Altruists approach strikes me as more equitable than simply selecting the planet closest to the galaxy's midpoint, especially if the distance to both players' HWs is drastically different.
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At that time the center score-planet was worth 3pts (now 1pt I think). And I had to host only 1 game, the final one. I wouldn't be so careful when I had to create lots of games with the center planet worth only 1pt because it is, indeed, quite time consuming.
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