Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » The Negitive effects of someone posting their game files early?
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| The Negitive effects of someone posting their game files early? |
Thu, 23 June 2011 09:56  |
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 slimdrag00n | 
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Messages: 630
Registered: January 2009
Location: new york -5 |  
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Here is just one discussion in the private forum that I took out and put here so that all the Veterans may shine light onto a beginner who has ruined my game. Maybe Ill miss a few things to mention.
| nmid wrote on Thu, 23 June 2011 06:03 |
| LittleEddie wrote on Thu, 23 June 2011 15:16 |
Let me rephrase that,
As to ending the game because of what Nmid did to it, I could go either way.
As to declaring a winner, it's way to early for that.
Ed
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Hmmmm... disclosing intel about a race and calling an end to a game have NO relation to each other.
Let's be realistic.. what exactly did I do apart from pointing out that Amazons and centurians are running away with the game?
I could have posted the exact fleet sizes and intel, but due to a lack of time, I went for an easier option.
Anyways, Crocs and taka-taka have been saying the same for the past 15 years.
Calling an end to the game because of "what Nmid did to it" sounds as if I've hacked, crashed, cheated, changed the balance of the game.
Wow.
Talk about making a mountain of a molehole.
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Nmid you are completely wrong in thinking disclosing Intel about a race and calling an end to a game have no relation to each other. Your logic is weak with no points to back it up so please read and learn our point of view so that you may have understanding. A small part of some of us think our hard work has been slightly ruined and that we should just quit now and start a new. Some players may now see my empire and compare it with there own and feel like they have no chance making them want to quit.
I am glad I only looked at your turn for under 1 minute and forgot the PW. I wish I didn't look but figured everyone else did and I didn't want them to have the unfair advantage.
The advantage mostly goes to them due to your scouting being most recently in my empire. So we all got to cheat by looking but many of us negatively effected, more so than others. There is no positives that I can think of by posting a Game PW before the game ends. Id rather scout on my own with my own skills.
No one asked for your game password. You should have just shown your ally.
These games last months or years. We put 100's of hours into one single game if it lasts long enough. All it takes is 1 cheat or something else to take all the fairness out of the game to make it worthless to play. All those hours we put into the game, Sweat, loss of sleep, time we could have spent with our wives all down the drain over a simple act you do without thinking of how it effects others.
Maybe knowing our feelings of seeing you post game files early will make you understand what you did was wrong and not debatable.
Here are a few reasons how you have changed the balance of the game. Afterwards you will have a few Ah-ha moments.
By showing your game files before end game everyone can see how big my empire is, I have spent lots of resources keeping peoples scouts out of my empire which they now see. They see many mines in space I have, Where my HW is, my borders, they see my pop, They see my designs and they see my war fleet.
They see my Hab, and those who have my hab will either not trust me now or they will fight me for my planets. Speaking of which because everyone thinks I am so strong for some reason the most hurtful thing is my Diplo. I cannot make good pacts, treaties, or Naps due to the fact everyone could want to team up on me or my alliance from every direction to see to it that I lose.
You did not hack but this is a one ally game so giving your race to one ally is no big deal. Showing it to everyone is like giving everyone a Universe Hack so they can see things they should not be able to see thus taking out some of the fairness, challenge, and fun out of the game.
I see more planets scouted in the south east I didn't have scouted at all, I see their Habs, I see Valkillers HW which is his one world wonder with the same hab as you. So he must have maybe 5k resources. It is the same hab as yours. He will now come for your planets that I took, I know he will. Ill be r
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[Updated on: Thu, 23 June 2011 10:31]
......
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| Re: The Negitive effects of someone posting their game files early? |
Thu, 23 June 2011 10:33  |
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quote removed.
hahahaha.
At office so can't really take out time to reply to this point wise, but be assured I will.
Just a quick observation.. how's this any different from saying that you have "x number of planets with x pop, x fleets etc etc etc."
It's intel.
I should have been discreet about it, or exercised restraint in posting a public link, but I didn't.
I admitted that I made an error and agreed to abide by the opinion of my peers.. but if you are saying that this caused an unfair advantage or changed the balance of the game due to the simple fact that others knew your empire better, that's bollocks.
The situation existed before I made the disclosure.
My disclosure just revealed the ground reality to everyone.
[Updated on: Thu, 23 June 2011 17:17]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Negitive effects of someone posting their game files early? |
Thu, 23 June 2011 12:19 |
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| vonKreedon |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA | |
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I disagree with slim that Nmid making his entire set of intel available is an inherently wrong thing to do. It might be a very smart Machievellian thing to do and in no way violates any game rules, and so IMO is a valid game play decision.
Slim says:
| Quote: |
By showing your game files before end game everyone can see how big my empire is, I have spent lots of resources keeping peoples scouts out of my empire which they now see. They see many mines in space I have, Where my HW is, my borders, they see my pop, They see my designs and they see my war fleet.
They see my Hab, and those who have my hab will either not trust me now or they will fight me for my planets. Speaking of which because everyone thinks I am so strong for some reason the most hurtful thing is my Diplo. I cannot make good pacts, treaties, or Naps due to the fact everyone could want to team up on me or my alliance from every direction to see to it that I lose.
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Well, this is quite a good diplomatic result for those who are not Slim. I can understand why Slim doesn't like this result, but I don't see why it's a heinous action beyond the pale of right thinking game play. Certainly I'm in the process of pimping what a threat you and the Centaurs are using all the intel I can muster. I haven't shared any actual game files/reports, but really only because I'm not that desperate and the cost/benefit of giving that much intel to potential adversaries doesn't work out for me at this time.
I might have had a little bit of a problem with Nmid if he'd given out his empire's information and then dropped out, sort of slamming the door behind him, but he's continued to play his turns despite being destroyed by the combination of rule breaking penalty and the Amazon/Centaur offensive that coincided with his penalty ban. Good on Nmid.
[Updated on: Thu, 23 June 2011 12:20] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Negitive effects of someone posting their game files early? |
Thu, 23 June 2011 12:23 |
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| m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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Cool down, Slim. If you had managed to keep all of his scouts out of your space, then his intel wouldn't be nearly so valuable. 
Also, disclosing intel about enemies in order to hamper their efforts is all too common. This case would be a bit extreme, but still...
The number of your planets per se gives just a hint on what your econ is. Your habs, or at least what habs you like to colonize, are easy enough to learn. Same with your ship designs. Counterdesigning is at the heart of this game. So is conflict. 
So what did you really lose? Very little, IMO. What did you or anyone else gain? Not a lot. It doesn't reflect too well on nmid, either, but that's his sole concern. 
If everyone else wants to surrender and hand you the victory anyway, you'll have saved the countless hours it would have taken you to defeat them. Huzzah. Wrap up and get onto the next game. But hopefully some races will deem themselves strong enough to oppose you and the game will go on (almost) as usual. 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Negitive effects of someone posting their game files early? |
Thu, 23 June 2011 13:09 |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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You know what really has a negative effect on me?
Those damn OA's some races use. yep.
It's very rare for a player who has been more or less killed, to submit all his files, and password, including all backup years to all other players.
So I say: it's quite unusual. At least in all the games I've experienced over the years.
How unfair is it? Probably more unfair for a basically dead player, than for allies and conspirators to share info with other players in the interest of defeating a strong enemy. But then again, allies don't share all their planet info too when they do that. Just the info they have on the enemy territory and forces.
What Nmid basically did also, is disclose the planet scouting info of most of the universe with everyone. HW locations, habs, and more. So, in a way, this hurts everyone more than the usual info sharing methods used in most games.
For example: when I took over the AR race in the game I had poor scouting, and didn't do much to improve it because of the situation I was in. Now I pretty much know almost every planet on the map. Can you say "cheap scouting". LOL
And how did all this come about? Mostly due to the host punishing Nmid for using a forbidden exploit in the game. I KNOW m.a@stars doesn't want to get into that realm again. 
BlueTurbit Country/RockReport message to a moderator
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| reply 1/7 (use the other forum view) |
Thu, 23 June 2011 15:48 |
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I'll answer your (and other) posts thematically, not point wise.
I'm open to different viewpoints, but being open doesn't mean I pander to your over-reactions or paranoia.
You have a problem with your intel being leaked out.
I understand. That was the original point of action anyways.
I was refraining from explaining my fuzzy logic earlier, but now I will.
The punishment that I got gave an unfair advantage to YOU.
You were able to take over my HW's minerals, take out my future fleet, save atleast 3 worlds of yours, while giving your OWW ally another near-perfect world with HW mineral concentrations, along with another world that's almost 80%.
The host didn't realise the repurcusions of his punishment. I did find it excessive, but even I didn't think it would cause me to be dead in 3 years.
To balance out this, I decided to take things in my hands, knowing the ground reality.
Others don't know what's going on. It's just you and me.
When blue say's that he hasn't seen anyone upload the entire archive folder online, I would say perhaps I wouldn't too.. if it hadn't been for the ease of dropbox.
However I've been pretty organised in keeping my backup files for the multiple games I'm playing and I used what I had.
The main point is that my fuzzy logic decided to even out an uneven state of affairs for the OTHER players in the game.
I'm least bothered about my race. (details at end of post).
I consider your battle tactics quite skilled and I look forward to a normal game (see below), so I'll actually better my game.
However in this game, the way I was knocked out left me thinking that it was too easy for u... (repeating myself, point already made, so that's it).
Details -> My race. ( Read sub-note at end)
I joined this game with an objective of taking out 2 HWs before my OWW race faltered against other -f races / +f races.
Being a tiny universe, I felt I had a good chance and decided to see how my tested race would fare in an actual game.
So dying 1st did not hit my ego one bit, nor did I disclose my race info out of spite. So it wasn't an issue of gamesmanship
or a casea of sour grapes imho.
Sub note ->
While speaking to a friend about my logic, I realised that perhaps I was unfair for the other players in the game by making it unbalanced from the very start with my attitude and game plan.
I do need to think about it. I don't think the idea of a OWW was wrong, but the point made that not putting in my best in the game, was unfair for others... that is a valid point. My only thought is it was open for all levels and I could be a complete wet-behind-the-ears new player.
I still have to come to a conclusion about the validity of my race submission, after I heard it's criticism.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| reply 2/7 (use the other forum view) |
Thu, 23 June 2011 15:49 |
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Thematic answering done, I don't like barbs or actions mis-attributed to me.
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"I am glad I only looked at your turn for under 1 minute and forgot the PW. I wish I didn't look but figured everyone else did and I didn't want them to have the unfair advantage."
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That's a yes and a no. Either do it or don't do it.
What's this about "forgot the PW"?
Next point...
definition of cheating.
lol.. nvm, I've just had a nice soothing shower so I'm all relaxed after office. Moving on.
My objective was not to show it to my ally, but to negate an unfair advantage that you gained.
I am sorry about the fact that Vonkreedon is a OWW got out from me.. but the intel about peacenics is dated. Big deal.
Also, do you really mean to say that ppl don't talk in the game?
I know a fleet of 27 copoid BBs waiting at the doorstep of taka-take's world... without having any scout of mine down south.
I knew your fleet of 25+ CCs were roaming down south, same way.
As for not being scouted by froggies, my 2 worlds have not been scouted by him in the past 15 years either. You were just lucky with your neighbour placing to have a complete newbie (no offence brazouk) to your north and me (_) to your east who didn't fight you for greens AND an IT OWW ally to your south who had 0 interests in your greens too.
I don't know why you are acting as if the world has come down on your head. A good game for you for sure, but you fearing ppl will either gang up on you now or they'll quit because they perceive you to be too strong, is not a valid argument against my actions.
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lasts months or years...
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you talk as if I've screwed up the game/ made it unplayable/ rendered it unfair.
I did nothing that didn't exist 1 year earlier my disclosure, apart from "pitchforking" you.
I hope you know what that means.
and blue, perhaps this is a new type of pitchforking. We don't need to play the same way as stars has been played for 15 years.
Sure, ethics should stay firm, and I do think I'll refrain from posting my archive folder in public next time, but tell me... seriously... do you think ppl (live players still in the game) won't reach out and ask for intel from a dead player while the game is running?
I'm suprised if that's what you think, and I know that it isn't so.
Perhaps I am more street-savvy than I thought... negative, positive? Both imo.
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What nmid did was wrong?
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No.
Not in this case.
more like ha-ha moments.
That was just a stupid response to a statement I consider highly condesending.
As for 2 ppl giving up? I would have played on with an intent of taking you out if my 2nd world wasn't handicapped with a 10 germ MC :s
I would still have been able to make an orgy, perhaps 10 years later, got in some help from allies, evaced to another sector of space... but yea.. would have managed something.
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Breaking of a rule.
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(chaff-mine-field-dodge).
That was a mistake for which I was punished. Perhaps a status-quo action would have been better than a punitive action, but fine. It was the host's call.
[to explain again, it was a standard operating procedure for me (and allowed) in 50%-66% of the games I've played. I was corrected about my misunderstanding, but due to my play style in this game and RL issues (playing rushed turns), I made a mistake with my decoy push towards berry.]
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"Part of me (slim) wants to quit".
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Well, unless you are a -f, which seems quite possible... actually now I think about it, almost the case.. a -f IT. Nice.. quite popular that race... back to the main point, ah, I would say it's 60-40 for you now.
I would have thought you were going to win 90%, but I will revise it a bit lower.
Ofcourse having a +F IT OWW as an ally who has 27+ BB already might help you out.
I don't think anyone else is as mobilized as you both atm.
ofc, I have no scouts in the eastern/southern part of the universe, so who knows.
...
[Updated on: Thu, 23 June 2011 15:57]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| reply 3/7 (use the other forum view) |
Thu, 23 June 2011 15:58 |
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You know what really has a negative effect on me?
When I have to click on "show the rest of this message" in order to read a post, because the quote is two pages long.
Can't we just reply to very long posts without huge quotes?
Doesn't that make good horse sense?
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Not if I'm in a hurry and my fuzzy logic is in action.
It was in the back of my head that if someone's posts get deleted (not that it' going to happen here, as this sub-forum is under different management), but if it did.. atleast my quote has the full message, so that I can reply to it when I have the time.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| reply 4/7 (use the other forum view) |
Thu, 23 June 2011 16:02 |
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Telling enemies Intel they didn't ask for makes no sense and showing them or writing out all the info still hurts players just the SAME. I am not even going to debate something that didn't happen. Ill use my energy on what did happen.
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If I had time like the good old days (2 months ago  ), I would have had networked and pointed out your strenghts by 2420.
I know only one person who showed the same level of intel-sharing and I would love to play a game with him again.. against him or with him.
taka taka.
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Peaces haven't scouted any of my planets
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Already said.. he's not a baseline to compare with.
He didn't ping my world 30 LY away from one of his own, for more than 10 years.
Hardly any communication from him either.
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I beat you with Centurian ships as well not just my own. Just because You lost to me doesn't make me good. You had no fleets and only 20% defenses so of course your HW went down.
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I went down due to other factors. Not due to my HW not having defences up.
Bad play from me for a turn when I was blind and not realising it was the reason I went down.
The fact still exists that as a (possible -f) IT, you are far more mobile than peace is.
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Peaces have a lot of planets. They are probably in at the top place by guessing and that's all we can do. Besides me seeing on my turn they have lots of planets I don't know anything about them either but of course that has changed sense they see me in your turn. He has no fleets That I know of so he probably has the resources to build Jug missiles already. Guessing or using our own scouts is more fun. We both could be -F for all I know.
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perhaps. debatable, but now they will pull their socks up and build a fleet if they don't have it yet, instead of just counting on minefield defence.. or make some heavies and speedbumps.. or bah, I hate SD. It's a tight rope-walk to balance defence and ensure it doesn't hem your offensive ability.
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You can debate everything you want but I genuinely want you to understand it was wrong and just simply not do it again so future games are not ruined. Not here to make you look bad or anything but I hope that some Veterans here will help you understand giving out Race PW before end game shouldn't be done.
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Thanks for your effort and I appreciate it.. but as I said, it was a combination of factors that made me decide to post my game files.
lack of time to shout wolf and you getting an undue advantage imo being the two primary factors.
It has been pointed out that I did cross a line. After sleeping over it, I agreee with them on a general basis, but not on this case.
Makes my explanation here more succint, as I understand what the general public will perceive.
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I took out your HW thus I think my word alone means nothing to you.
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A bit. but I'm still listening and learning, which will fine-tune my future default behaviour 
@blue - "Horse sense"
just read it again, in ma.stars's quote..
hahahahaha. Nice pun, big blue.
@vonkreedon, thanks.
@ma.stars
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Also, disclosing intel about enemies in order to hamper their efforts is all too common. This case would be a bit extreme, but still...
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Just moving with the times and doing what was convinient.
I'm sure it's been done to a lesser degree in the past.. and to a lesser degree just because it wasn't easily feasible to reach out to everyone.
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Not a lot. It doesn't reflect too well on nmid, either, but that's his sole concern.
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As was pointed out to me by 2 other players when I asked their opinion.
I value their insight and their strong sense of ethics and once I listened to them, I apologised for my actions.
However when the debate was revived, I decided to figure out my fuzzy logic and figure out WHY exactly I did it in the 1st place.. what made me do something that was unsportsmanlike...
I think I explained myself in my earlier posts.
...
[Updated on: Thu, 23 June 2011 16:03]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: reply 7/7 (use the other forum view) |
Thu, 23 June 2011 16:30 |
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| BlueTurbit |
| Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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| Quote: |
RAGE!!! WHICH RULE DID I BREAK !!!
TEARS HAIR OUT.
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Nmid. If you're sick, go to the hospital. 
The one that the host punished you for, that you apologized for, and that was discussed extensively in the game forum, before many of the posts, and some threads there, got deleted, including many posts discussing the rule break.
Which you yourself complained there about posts getting deleted. Is that irony or what?
Does this ring a bell?
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2) Using chaff, split-fleet dodge and the repair after gating loophole is ok, all other "cheats" are forbidden and most likely lead to your disqualification
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http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=478 5&start=0&rid=3&S=09c4735e3782ac36930eef9dfa36ae 08
How many times do I have to tell you to take more notes?
BlueTurbit Country/RockReport message to a moderator
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| Re: reply 7/7 (use the other forum view) |
Thu, 23 June 2011 16:36 |
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| BlueTurbit wrote on Fri, 24 June 2011 02:00 |
| Quote: |
RAGE!!! WHICH RULE DID I BREAK !!!
TEARS HAIR OUT.
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Nmid. If you're sick, go to the hospital.
The one that the host punished you for, that you apologized for, and that was discussed extensively in the game forum, before many of the posts, and some threads there, got deleted, including many posts discussing the rule break.
Which you yourself complained there about posts getting deleted. Is that irony or what?
Does this ring a bell?
| Quote: |
2) Using chaff, split-fleet dodge and the repair after gating loophole is ok, all other "cheats" are forbidden and most likely lead to your disqualification
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http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=478 5&start=0&rid=3&S=09c4735e3782ac36930eef9dfa36ae 08
How many times do I have to tell you to take more notes?
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Sigh, that was a light hearted reply to ma.star's post.
I was talking about which rule my posting the game files break... which was the main point of this thread.
Talking about the chaff-mine-field dodge,
I've already admitted to that mistake of mine and accepted the punishment as well.
I'm embarrassed about that mistake of mine.. and the irony of the matter is that both the times it was against slimdragoon.
1st time in an informal friendly duel, 2nd time in KFIAPB (due to an oversight..)
Not joking anymore.
Regards,
Nmid.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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