[Updated on: Tue, 03 May 2011 18:50]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

I rage quit this thread!!!!

Report message to a moderator

Eagle of Fire wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 00:56

That's nice to hear that the cheating party was properly taken care of. It is a nice change of pace, at least for me.

What cheating party?

Report message to a moderator

mlaub wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 15:38

It is rare to just get 1 ship for 9800 metal (actually I think it is impossible).

Rare, but not impossible, as the many players who've suffered it know.

Report message to a moderator

ManicLurch wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 00:48

Yes, it is, maybe it is time to agree to disagree and leave it alone.

I won't stand anyone being gratuitously called things they aren't, and lumped together with the real evildoers.

Even less when it has been the long-time and honoured custom here to clearly tell apart the main kinds of wrongdoing players.

We've always had cheaters, and backstabbers and breakers and benders. It's always been clear to everyone what each label meant, and what kind of treatment they deserved, and the laziness or vengefulness or blatant stupidity of a few won't trump the rules of the rest.

Stupidity big enough as to bring along the ghost of Micha, possibly the greatest cheater of all times, to draw unfair comparisons with Mac and even myself.

Mac is NOT A CHEATER, and whoever calls him that will have ME in front. Is that clear enough??????????

[Updated on: Wed, 04 May 2011 10:55]

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 20:24

Mac is NOT A CHEATER, and whoever calls him that will have ME in front. Is that clear enough??????????

I didn't agree with getting micha's example into this discussion.. but are you telling me that Mac is NOT A CHEATER?
I didn't quite get that part, and I doubt size7 would have made a difference either.

Let's focus ONLY on mac and the 2 instances right now and NOT bring in any other-game examples or possible situations like chaff etc, ok?
Are you saying he
1. Pop-dropped by mistake? AND
2. caught the MT by mistake???

m.a@stars, I really respect your long standing here and your help/posts in the forums, but come on.. How careless do you think Mac is, or how gullible do you think others are?
It has to be either of the 2.

Let's make this simpler.
If a host pulls me up for one infraction (pop-drop), which might have been a genuine mistake, I'll be careful of not doing another one.

And please.. how many games is Mac playing in at the momement?
The last game he played (from the forum posts, I see) was a glacier game as well.
Catching a MT is a big thing, which I find very very VERY hard to believe was an oversight or simply a hurried turn.

I have no ill-will against Mac, but all he had to do was apologise and the whole thing would have died down.
I see not one post from him, but instead other people defending him. (based on their possible? past dealings with him and not 1st hand experience of these 2 instances).

I am not playing the game, but if I see even the oldest player making 2 mistakes like this in a go, I would tend towards thinking the same.
I would expect them to atleast post their defence/apologies and nip this in the bud.

ps - please, when you reply to this post, do answer ALL my points.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Eagle of Fire wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 22:20

Don't you guys get it already? M.a is not really defending Mac, he his defending his own point of view. And in his own point of view, Mac can't be a cheater because cheaters simply don't exist for him. Why? Because it is convenient. Just re-read what he said up to now... How convenient is it to break the rules to your advantage with the only downfall (if you do get caught, which is not guaranteed) is to plead innocence and know that you have a good chance to get away with it? The discussion about Mac, in this thread, is long gone. The aforementioned point is what is being discussed now.

Actually, I want to understand m.a@star's statement from his own side.. and if I remember correctly, m.a said this on page 1.

m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 10:09

A 10 or 15 turn ban. That should about balance out the gains from that unlawful MT catching. Alternatively, change all his passwords and find a replacement player. Stomped!

The main fight converted into a discussion if rule bending is the same as cheating or not.
Perhaps an off-thread topic, as this was talking only about Mac doing 2 things, that were definitely not rule-bending, in GlacierIV.

I would not get into the discussion of
1. "no chaff allowed, 1yak/1 colloidal FFs as main ships in the past, now used as minesweepers OR crash sweepers
2. following "spirit of the rules" = cheating, leads to a slippery slope.
3. Micha, who apologised and if I remember correctly has not come online since then.
4. Slippery slopes. (said already..)
5. Helping the enemy of the enemy discussion and unsporting behavior.
6. Special game rules.
.......
I give up making a summary. Woah.. talk about a lot of ppl's pent up feelings coming to the fore.

May I point out this was a specific post against specific instances of mac in glacier.

Why is it turning into a discussion on how to rate rule-bending on the cheating scale?

Also, I stand corrected.
As I was rereading the entire thread from the start, I realised that Skandal's the host, not Neil as I mistakenly assumed earlier.
Dunno why I read GlacierIV with my eyes but my brain processed it as another game.
Apologies to Centurian and Skandal.

ps - Centurian, really like some of your posts.. especially your interpretation of rule bending/cheating.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

nmid wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 17:14

I doubt size7 would have made a difference either.

Sorry, that was just the attention-getter, aimed at those with poor eyesight or asleep.

Quote:

1. Pop-dropped by mistake? AND 2. caught the MT by mistake???

I don't care how many things he did, when or why. Breaking in-game rules is just breaking in-game rules.

Show me the game files (m, h, x, xy, hst, r#, exe, dll, hlp) that he hacked. Show me the privileged info he unlawfully gained thru any trick. Tell me what tools he used to do it. Tell me which of the long list of known game-cheats he used. Show me the new cheat he found. How he destroyed the game for everybody else. Or. He. Didn't. Cheat.

Quote:

If a host pulls me up for one infraction (pop-drop), which might have been a genuine mistake, I'll be careful of not doing another one.

And if then you're labelled as a cheater and other hosts or players genuinely believe that you cheated, you risk being banned from all games forever, your reputation destroyed, and your chances to ever playing again (at least here) nil. It would never again matter how careful you got.

Quote:

Catching a MT is a big thing, which I find very very VERY hard to believe was an oversight or simply a hurried turn.

Not as big as what Micha did. Not as big as overloading the battleboard, risking the whole game crashing in the process. Not nearly as game-breaking as purposely benefiting from the N-S minefield immunity, the freepop hack, uploading minerals to an enemy fleet with no cargo holds, or running more races than allowed.

Never as big as true cheating!

True cheats can't be done by mistake, in a hurry or for any benign intent. The difference is clear, and it's there for very good reasons, perhaps even more because of the punishment than of the fault itself.

Quote:

I have no ill-will against Mac, but all he had to do was apologise and the whole thing would have died down.

I'd say, based on historical data, that apologising is largely optional once justice has been served. But when will he get apologies for his almost getting his reputation destroyed on a whim for a trivial offense???

Quote:

I see not one post from him,

Carelessness? Or perhaps because no-one in their right non-paranoid mind would imagine the depths of filth he's been dragged to because of something that was fixed almost as soon as it was discovered?

Quote:

but instead other people defending him. (based on their possible? past dealings with him and not 1st hand experience of these 2 instances).

Nope. Based on my own sense of justice, and of stopping a great deal of damage stemming from a seemingly innocent accusation.

Quote:

when you reply to this post, do answer ALL my points.

I believe I have. If not, please re-ask.

Cheers,

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 01:26

Quote: 1. Pop-dropped by mistake? AND 2. caught the MT by mistake??? I don't care how many things he did, when or why. Breaking in-game rules is just breaking in-game rules. Show me the game files (m, h, x, xy, hst, r#, exe, dll, hlp) that he hacked. Show me the privileged info he unlawfully gained thru any trick. Tell me what tools he used to do it. Tell me which of the long list of known game-cheats he used. Show me the new cheat he found. How he destroyed the game for everybody else. Or. He. Didn't. Cheat.

So you don't consider breaking of in-game rules equal to cheating.
Ok, I respect your viewpoint.
Can we call him "careless" or "unethical" or "intentional abuser of game rules"... you suggest a word or phrase.
The fact of the matter is that he did something that gave him an advantage over the other schmucks who followed the host's rules. Correct?

If I had been the host and I had been observant enough to catch it, like skandal did, I would have regened the year after dumping the minerals meant for the MT in space.. or undid the pop-drop and penalised the player by removing part of the HW pop into a LF and scrapping it.

Let's make it simpler.
Qs. Why do you call "battleboard overloading or purposely benefiting from the N-S minefield immunity, the freepop hack, uploading minerals to an enemy fleet with no cargo holds, or running more races than allowed" cheating?
Ans. As it ends up giving the "careless player/ intentional abuser/cheater/ misc synonym" an advantage over the other players and puts him in a position of strength.
If the same is achieved by intentionally breaking rules/limitations that others are following, irrespective that they happen to be "host rules", then it is "careless/intentional abusing of ingame rules/cheating".

If the host is being benevolent and believes it was a genuine mistake, then the punishment depends on the magnitude.. not just because it was done.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 01:26

And if then you're labelled as a cheater and other hosts or players genuinely believe that you cheated, you risk being banned from all games forever, your reputation destroyed, and your chances to ever playing again (at least here) nil. It would never again matter how careful you got.

Other hosts would know that the player tends to make careless mistakes and would ideally keep an eye out in future games, to prevent the game from getting spoilt and/or the player getting embarrassed.
Depends on how the host deals with it.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 01:26

Quote: Catching a MT is a big thing, which I find very very VERY hard to believe was an oversight or simply a hurried turn. Not as big as what Micha did. Not as big as overloading the battleboard, risking the whole game crashing in the process. Not nearly as game-breaking as purposely benefiting from the N-S minefield immunity, the freepop hack, uploading minerals to an enemy fleet with no cargo holds, or running more races than allowed. Never as big as true cheating! True cheats can't be done by mistake, in a hurry or for any benign intent. The difference is clear, and it's there for very good reasons, perhaps even more because of the punishment than of the fault itself.

So you just have an issue with him being called "dark black", when he's actually a shade of "dark grey". Hmmmm, that's reasonable.
What would you call the shade of dark grey?

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 01:26

Quote: I have no ill-will against Mac, but all he had to do was apologise and the whole thing would have died down. I'd say, based on historical data, that apologising is largely optional once justice has been served. But when will he get apologies for his almost getting his reputation destroyed on a whim for a trivial offense???

Perhaps my ignorance makes me believe that the offence (of getting a tech from pop-drop or getting 5-10 tech from an MT in a glacier game) is a big deal.
I could be mist

[Updated on: Wed, 04 May 2011 17:04]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

nmid wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 22:57

Ok, I respect your viewpoint. Can we call him "careless" or "unethical" or "intentional abuser of game rules"... you suggest a word or phrase.

Historically, the words "cheater" and "backstabber" have quite well-defined meanings, here in these Forums, at old r.g.c.s, and for the majority of players. Other than that, I've seen many words and phrases used, "rule-bender" and "rule-breaker" being just some of the popular ones.

It doesn't really matter as long as the game host can deal with it.

It matters when someone comes here and makes a very public cry of "cheater", much like in that Boy Who Cried Wolf tale.

Quote:

I would have regened the year after dumping the minerals meant for the MT in space.. or undid the pop-drop

That's what many hosts do too. Even I have advocated for regens some times. Not everybody likes them, though.

Quote:

Qs. Why do you call "battleboard overloading or purposely benefiting from the N-S minefield immunity, the freepop hack, uploading minerals to an enemy fleet with no cargo holds, or running more races than allowed" cheating?

These are abuses of the game engine. No tweaking of in-game rules can prevent them. No host can stop them before happening. Many of them have great potential for damaging the whole game.

Also, they should be known enough by now that no-one can claim ignorance or carelessness about them. By comparison, forbidden M.Ts are far rarer.

Quote:

If the same is achieved by intentionally breaking rules/limitations that others are following, irrespective that they happen to be "host rules", then it is "careless/intentional abusing of ingame rules/cheating".

It's a question of degree, of consequences. The only known way to "fix" a battleboard overload would be a regen and lots of praying. Anything that can be fixed by a couple years' ban is trivial by comparison.

Think what it would take to "fix" the "upload minerals" cheat if it was used for decades during a long war. Regenning 25 turns back? Assuming that was even possible...

Quote:

Other hosts would know that the player tends to make careless mistakes and would ideally keep an eye out in future games, to prevent the game from getting spoilt and/or the player getting embarrassed. Depends on how the host deals with it.

You don't need the "cheater" label for that. Keep it for the serious cases and for mercy's sake, don't mix the one-timers with the hardened criminals.

Quote:

What would you call the shade of dark grey?

R U L E B R E A K E R

Quote:

getting a tech from pop-drop or getting 5-10 tech from an MT in a glacier game) is a big deal.

Big? Perhaps. Big enough to come crying "wolf" to the Forums and have a reputation destroyed? Most certainly not!

Quote:

I could be mistaken, but if I'm playing this game, I would not continue playing against my neighbour who suddenly jumps 6-11 techs ahead of me.

You would report him to the Host, who would deal with him accordingly.

Quote:

On the same topic, perhaps skandal should have been told about this thread. He could have posted saying he has already looked into the matter, made adequate punishments and believes it won't be repeated. Perhaps even saying if he considered it mistakes or intentional abuses of in-game rules.

That would have been good. Others with hosting experience have posted their thoughts, even if not everybody understood them.

Quote:

Because if players of the game are upset enough about it, to post outside the game sub-forums, that means the players are obviously not happy about the current state of affairs.

Unhappy players are very very easy to find. All too easy perhaps, be it in games with standard or special rules. Thar's why it matters who's the host and what the rules are.

Quote:

Or forget that, what would you call me, if I intentionally didn't abide by the rules of the host.

Target #1!

...or perhaps a repl

Report message to a moderator

I'll assume here that you can read and think, please forgive me if that's not so...

Eagle of Fire wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 23:45

Are you going to tell us next that if you drive over the speed limit you are not breaking the law as long as you are not caught doing it?

I am going to tell you that I hope when the police officer is writing your fine for overspeeding, some cranky old lady comes along and accuses you of killing her dear old cat, and gets you publicly pilloried on her word alone and jailed for life as murderer.

Quote:

Because that's exactly what is being said here. In many more words.

I can only imagine the shade of red your literacy teachers would get if they could see you now.

Quote:

Which is why I would be inclined to brand him as a cheater even though I don't know him at all

Which would be why many people reading your words would stop caring about one iota you might say.

Quote:

Also, why the sudden mention of Micha as the devil incarnate? Yeah, he cheated. In my book a lot of players cheats in every game I play,

...and you think it only natural to consider them as bad as Micha, or perhaps that's why you seem to consider what Micha did harmless...

Quote:

That really calls for much greater respect. And guess what?

And guess what? I respect Micha far more than I'll respect, for example, you. Because he was once great, and might still become great again, and I'm not the only one who so wishes. You, on the other hand, don't even seem to know what "respect" means.

Quote:

Just to give you an example, only recently I had another player telling me all the habs of every players in a game because he's CA. News flash: I'm CA too and I never looked at their habs in all that game, nor will I do either because that's an exploit... And when he came forward with it, I explained the concept of an exploit and I am under the impression that I actually got thru to him.

Interestingly that exploit isn't on the long list of known game-cheats. Harmless though it might be, at least compared with the rest, it should perhaps be added.

Quote:

The honor system only work if all the players use it all game long. As soon as a single rotten apple appears, all the basked get spoiled as well in a way or another. Using "politically correct" words to hide the real truth only help to swipe that honor system to the side in the med to long run.

The honor system also needs a proportionality between crime and punishment. Otherwise, all the apples would eventually be labeled as rotten, regardless of their actual status.

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Wed, 04 May 2011 21:24]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator