Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Mac is (almost) a cheater
| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Mon, 02 May 2011 10:56   |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 09:18 |
That has long been my policy, with special avoidance measures towards hosts too fond of complex silly rulesets, easiest to exploit, hardest to enforce, and most conducive to aborted games. 
This thread has reinforced said policy. I sincerely hope players who engage in such ruleset minefields have the best of luck, because they'll need it. 
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Considering that the games you are maligning are thematic games such as Glacier, you really have no argument that is valid. Part of the game is in the restrictions, also known as rules. The rules make the game fun, as it changes the whole concept of the game. That same idea was what the Jeffs were going to bring to the next version of stars, imbedding it into the code (RDL) so that the hosts would not need to enforce the rules, it would just be part of that game.
I don't remember any of my games that were aborted due to too many rules. Actually, it is the opposite. One of my first failures as host was not fully defining split fleet dodge rules (which was before it was accepted as base rule for games).
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Mon, 02 May 2011 11:07 |
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| m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| mlaub wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 16:56 |
Considering that the games you are maligning are thematic games such as Glacier, you really have no argument that is valid.
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I'm "maligning" only the absurd rules some people try to impose to achieve such thematic games, not the games themselves. In fact I've had the pleasure of playing under quite gifted and creative hosts in that regard, and the games were always great fun and memorable. 
If the only "argument" you have is endlessly accusing me of saying things I've never said, or being things I'm not, you really are without any valid argument at all. 
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Part of the game is in the restrictions, also known as rules. The rules make the game fun,
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Absurd or incomplete rules won't, and hosts unable or unwilling to enforce them won't either, regardless of their good intentions. 
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I don't remember any of my games that were aborted due to too many rules. Actually, it is the opposite.
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Lucky you. I remember just the opposite happening. 
Oh, noes, I just voided another of your "arguments"... stop making me do that! 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Mon, 02 May 2011 12:51 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 10:07 |
| mlaub wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 16:56 |
Considering that the games you are maligning are thematic games such as Glacier, you really have no argument that is valid.
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I'm "maligning" only the absurd rules some people try to impose to achieve such thematic games, not the games themselves.
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Ok, that makes no sense to me.
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If the only "argument" you have is endlessly accusing me of saying things I've never said, or being things I'm not, you really are without any valid argument at all.
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I find that humorous, considering that "our" argument started by you extending my chaff example from Yaks, to Coll, then putting words in my mouth.
I agree with the samething you agreed to about what Centaur said, so either you are not understanding me, or you are argueing with me just to argue. Given that you seem to enjoy picking a fight with me nearly every time I post, and you put words in my mouth from the start, I would assume the latter.
So, either continue this with me in private, or drop it.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Mon, 02 May 2011 14:41 |
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| m.a@stars |
| Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| mlaub wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 18:51 |
Ok, that makes no sense to me.
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Ok, I'll try to use simpler words then:
You seem to think all rules, by the mere fact of just existing, are good, unavoidable, and fit to purpose. Never mind that no such thing exists in this world, but that seems to be the basic assumption in all your posts. 
I say that many people, such as game hosts, invent all kinds of rules for all kinds of purposes, for example, a "thematic" game or scenario. More often than not such rules are flawed, full of loopholes, misinterpretations or outright exploits. It is then to be expected that people fail to follow them to the letter, perhaps even to the spirit. Even lawyers and judges acknowledge that. But not you, or so it seems from your "slippery slope" B.S.
You counter that our duty as players is asking the rules-makers about the intent and/or boundaries of their rules. And in the next post you scoff me for doing just that, insult me, and order me to stay away from any games you host. That would be only one of the inconsistencies on your part, and I pity the players that try to abide by the rules of such an inconsistent ruler.
The fact that some games with special rules have been successful doesn't imply that all of them will be, and many in fact aren't. One of the hallmarks of failure? Players bending or breaking those rules to their advantage. Another? Hosts failing to enforce good behavior. How to fix the problem? Certainly not by calling everyone who bends a rule or even asks for clarification a "cheater". 
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"our" argument started by you extending my chaff example from Yaks, to Coll, then putting words in my mouth.
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I extended nothing. I used another real-game example and put a question mark at the end, because I was asking for clarification.
Perhaps I should have used more question marks???????
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you are not understanding me
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Most likely, since all I'm getting is insults instead of answers.
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you seem to enjoy picking a fight with me nearly every time I post
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If that means you think I'm paying any special attention to your posts, rest assured, that is not so. Or is this another not-so-thinly-veiled insult?
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and you put words in my mouth from the start
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Where did I do that? Why are you so upset that not everyone thinks the same as you? What makes you think your opinion is the only one that matters??????????
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Tue, 03 May 2011 10:35 |
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| Ron |
| Commander
Forum Administrator
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Messages: 1231
Registered: October 2002
Location: Collegedale, TN | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 14:43 |
| Eagle of Fire wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 19:14 |
Mlaub, just ignore him. There is plenty of other participants in this discussion to make it go forward without having to face a troll.
Heck, the simple fact that he posted what? 6 posts in a row should be enough for people to realize that half this thread is himself talking to himself. Don't feed the troll.
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That is a troll post, the second you make in a short time, as well as more than slightly insulting towards me and everybody who happens to be able to think independently. As such, I've reported it, and I demand that you apologize in full.
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You did report it, and it could be considered a troll post. That doesn't mean that it was meant to be a troll post, but it's possible that it was. It also could be a bit insulting to anyone who let themselves be insulted by it.
If it was really a troll post, then you just fed the troll by your reply, unfortunately.
As I understand it, trolls that don't get fed are a lot less active. Some people are born with troll-resistant armor (I didn't say troll-proof) with a phlegmatic type personality. Things just don't bother them much and they take life pretty easy. Others have to learn to make their own armor: they decide how they choose to respond to potentially insulting situations. After all, you cannot control how people treat you, but you can control how you respond and/or react.
You may not be aware that part of your reply could be considered 'trollish' where you say | Quote: |
who happens to be able to think independently
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So, when you see a post that you consider trollish, just shake your head and say "How sad, that poor individual is trying to get attention by insulting people. I choose not to reply in any way that might give him the kind of attention he wants. Even if I do find his post personally insulting, I choose not to give him the satisfaction of reacting in the way he hopes I will."
Ron Miller
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Tue, 03 May 2011 11:52 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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[quote title=m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 13:41]| mlaub wrote on Mon, 02 May 2011 18:51 |
You seem to think all rules, by the mere fact of just existing, are good, unavoidable, and fit to purpose. Never mind that no such thing exists in this world, but that seems to be the basic assumption in all your posts.
I say that many people, such as game hosts, invent all kinds of rules for all kinds of purposes, for example, a "thematic" game or scenario. More often than not such rules are flawed, full of loopholes, misinterpretations or outright exploits. It is then to be expected that people fail to follow them to the letter, perhaps even to the spirit. Even lawyers and judges acknowledge that. But not you, or so it seems from your "slippery slope" B.S.
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So what is the alternative? You continue to bash me, and special rules in general, but I see no solutions coming from you. What is the fix? No rules?
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You counter that our duty as players is asking the rules-makers about the intent and/or boundaries of their rules. And in the next post you scoff me for doing just that, insult me, and order me to stay away from any games you host. That would be only one of the inconsistencies on your part, and I pity the players that try to abide by the rules of such an inconsistent ruler.
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I wasn't discussing a game situation, just a nochaff rule. I provided one example. If you are putting forth a counter example, and expect me to respond as a host, you need to be a clearer. Just a question mark at the end of your remark was not enough. It looked like an accusation and judgement about how I would respond, and it still does.
Also, "order"? Really? When was the last time an order started with "please"? It was a request. I don't withdraw the statement. I would if we can get back to civility.
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The fact that some games with special rules have been successful doesn't imply that all of them will be, and many in fact aren't. One of the hallmarks of failure? Players bending or breaking those rules to their advantage. Another? Hosts failing to enforce good behavior. How to fix the problem? Certainly not by calling everyone who bends a rule or even asks for clarification a "cheater".
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I really dont see your point here. Many games that don't have special rules fail.
Instead of rehashing how special rules are bad, perhaps set your mind at a solution. I certainly like to see a simpler solution.
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Where did I do that? Why are you so upset that not everyone thinks the same as you? What makes you think your opinion is the only one that matters??????????
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Your statement above is very ironic too me.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Tue, 03 May 2011 13:17 |
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| m.a@stars |
| Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| mlaub wrote on Tue, 03 May 2011 17:52 |
So what is the alternative? You continue to bash me, and special rules in general, but I see no solutions coming from you. What is the fix? No rules?
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Ahhh, at long last we get to something interesting.
Iztok has already mentioned a possible approach. At least his rules have the benefit of being short. They also have the potential of awarding great fun to hosts who like to punish evildoers. 
I have the feeling that the more complex a solution is (rules) the less chances it has of working as intended (a good game or scenario) be it because of loopholes, inconsistencies, or just being hard to understand in all its little details and consequences. 
Blaming the players, punishing them, or even calling them "cheaters" doesn't solve the problem. They didn't make the holes, just spotted them. That should have been the task of the rules-crafter in the 1st place. So, who failed 1st at their duty? 
Rule-benders and rule-breakers should be punished fast and according to their crimes, and without any undue drama. Catching them shouldn't be hard. Ideally, if the game and the rules flowed well enough together, then nobody would even have a desire to subvert them in the 1st place. 
All of that is pretty common sense, I'd think. But the 1st step is aknowledging that it isn't enough to just dream a ruleset. It has to be refined and perfected, and those who find the trouble spots are a valuable part of the process.
Lumping them together with those who thrive by abusing the "hard" rules we don't control, those of the game engine itself, is doing a great disservice to everyone, starting with anyone who wants to know what has happened and will need to dig carefully just to learn what kind of "cheater" is being talked about.
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I wasn't discussing a game situation, just a nochaff rule. I provided one example. If you are putting forth a counter example, and expect me to respond as a host, you need to be a clearer. Just a question mark at the end of your remark was not enough.
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So it's not that you're inconsistent and too harsh, but just a little bit complex to approach without triggering the hidden detonators??? 
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Also, "order"? Really? When was the last time an order started with "please"?
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"Please deposit all metallic objects at the counter. Please stand still while officer Steelfingers proceeds to the standard cavity search. Got anything to declare? Please proceed to the exit. Thanks."
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I really dont see your point here.
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Your logical argument would have been stronger if there hadn't been any counterexamples, so I mentioned some. 
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Many games that don't have special rules fail.
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Luckily my logical argument is not greatly affected by that. 
Now that you mention it, that might be why many people (players and hosts) try special-rules games, to see if they work any better.
The rest of your objections and snide remarks seem to stem from an incomplete understanding of that I'm trying to say, which might be partly my fault, but at least you can't blame me for lack of effort. 
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Your statement above is very ironic too me.
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Ironic, isn't it? 
Unlike your ability to evade inconvenient questions, which is quite brilliant, certainly better than mine. 
...
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Tue, 03 May 2011 18:27 |
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Isn't this getting enough?
Both of you had valid points till page 2 and perhaps half of page 3.. but this is just turning into a fight. Why don't you both head over to the "anything goes" section?
Btw Neil, what happened to Mac in the main game?
If he apologised and has been punished so that his advantages (tech gain from popdrop/MT catching) have been nerfed (blowing up ships or banning for 10 years, after clearing his orders), then guess it's ok.
If mac isn't ready to continue playing after the punishment, perhaps you can just replace him.
It's sad that this might spoil the game for the other players in the game and his ally... and all the effort put into getting the universe set up.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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Re: Mac is a cheater
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