Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Mac is (almost) a cheater
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 05 May 2011 00:37   |
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| Eagle of Fire wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 14:54 |
What about that glossary which was mentioned earlier? Anybody interested in doing that or it is only a waste of time?
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Perhaps you could edit Glossary or Abbreviations...
...or any of the other links for new players on Learn to play
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 05 May 2011 08:11 |
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 Centaurian |
 | Petty Officer 3rd Class |
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2010 | |
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| Eagle of Fire wrote on Wed, 04 May 2011 17:45 |
Just stop playing on words. "Cheater" or "careless", that you intentionally or unintentionally break the rules of a game, you did cheat. Nothing will ever prevent that. It would be like asking for time to rewind so you can prevent it from happening...
All you can do is take responsibility and apologize. From what I've read so far, none of those two actions were taken by the offending party. Which is why I would be inclined to brand him as a cheater even though I don't know him at all and not because he actually broke the rules.
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Comments to first paragraph
My understanding of the word cheat in the context of a game:
To DELIBERATELY violate the rules for some kind of gain.
Hence, you can violate the rules and not be a cheat. Intent is key. This is something we cannot know in this instance. In this sense I agree wholly with m.a. - there are some actions that you take that you know are cheating: if you commit such an act, none of us are in doubt. You cheated! (I believe I've argued this previously.)
Now, when the rules are violated appropriate punitive action is necessary.
1. To make sure everyone knows there are consequences for not paying attention to the rules.
2. To make reparation for/undo advantages acquired through the act.
3. To discourage cheating. If you deem the gain achieved by flouting the rules to be greater than what you lose through punishment, then it may be deemed worthile, by some players, to deliberately violate the rule. In this respect, there is a strong argument for having well defined rules where the nature of the severe punishment is known in advance.
From what I've seen in Stars! games, players found to have cheated are banned from games. Players who break a rule are punished within the games.
Mac has been punished within the game.
Comments to second paragraph
Very brief, hopefully nonn-prejudicial, sequence of events as gleaned from the emails all players received:
1. Mac given 2 turn ban for pop drop rule violation.
2. Mac given 2 turn ban for catching MT rule violation. Host points out that damage minimal as only recived MT Probe.
3. NH drops from game branding Mac a cheater, refusing to play in a game where someone cheats.
4. Mac responds, explaining what happened from his point of view. He doesn't deny the violation, only the intent to cheat.
5. NH points out that Mac knew about the rule and had asked for it to be put on the game page.
6. Mac pointed out 4 month gap between this and rule violation not being inconsistent with his previous explanation.
7. NH brands Mac a cheater on HWF forum.
8. Much (often volatile) discussion ensues.
No public group emails from other players commented on this transgression by Mac. No other players besides NH have left the game since this event because of Mac's rule violations.
I appear to be the only player in the actual game to have commented on the accusation NH has made.
Centaurian.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 05 May 2011 10:01 |
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... and just imagine that it all started with just my question about what cheat was identified (if any), and how.
What followed was a lengthy war on... semantics, really.
For some, bending the rules set out by the host is cheating. For others, only abusing known game-engine flaws qualifies as cheating. Some say all illegitimate actions are cheating. Others say only intentional actions are to be viewed as such.
To cut it short, there are probably as many views on cheating as there are players in the Stars! Comunity themselves.
I'd just say let's leave the "guilt and punishment" decision-making in the hands of the host. That's what he's for: if he sets out rules, he should be prepared to enforce them, identify infractions and mete out punishment to those responsible. Each one of us is free to have his (or her) own opinion. Let's just not try to enforce our view on others, shall we?
I was just as curious what it takes to be called a "cheater", hence I asked my question. Looking at the length of the discussion that ensued, I cannot say that I didn't get the opportunity to find out. For this, let me express my thanks to anyone involved in this discussion so far. It was really enlightening.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 05 May 2011 10:14 |
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| slimdrag00n | 
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Messages: 630
Registered: January 2009
Location: new york -5 |  
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| m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 09:14 |
| magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 14:58 |
What's your objection to calling cheating cheating, though?
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As has been explained before...
And
| magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 14:58 |
there should be a hierarchy of punishments for a hierarchy of severity.
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By calling someone a cheater here in the Forums you're inviting everyone else to ban him from all games, destroy his reputation, and generally end his ability to ever play multiplayer Stars! again. 
So no, you cannot just call a minor infraction "cheating". That word is reserved for the major stuff.
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This is your umpteenth time explaining what you were standing for. By now, if some people just don't get it at this point, they may not ever get it.
......
Ranked games: 8-1
Recently won the game Knife Fight.
Looking for a practice duel.
.......Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 05 May 2011 10:52 |
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| m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| loucipher wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 16:01 |
... and just imagine that it all started with just my question about what cheat was identified (if any), and how.
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That was the best and most needed question of all. 
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What followed was a lengthy war on... semantics, really.
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Yes. All to avoid a nasty side-effect. Some people don't seem to realize what the old time-honored consensus has been here, and what the dire consequences could befall someone labelled as confirmed "cheater".
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To cut it short, there are probably as many views on cheating as there are players in the Stars! Comunity themselves.
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Quite likely. But the worst punishments are reserved for the worst offenders. In that most everybody should agree. 
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Let's just not try to enforce our view on others, shall we?
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Because it won't work. The rules of the many won't be swayed by the whining of the few. 
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I was just as curious what it takes to be called a "cheater", hence I asked my question. Looking at the length of the discussion that ensued, I cannot say that I didn't get the opportunity to find out. For this, let me express my thanks to anyone involved in this discussion so far. It was really enlightening.
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Me too. I had always assumed some things were self-evident enough, or at least well-documented enough, to be clear for everyone. It doesn't seem to work that way, and it has been a big learning experience for me. 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac broke some rules |
Thu, 05 May 2011 18:07 |
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| Centaurian |
| Petty Officer 3rd Class |
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2010 | |
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| neilhoward wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 15:59 |
It might be worth pointing out that Centaurian is Mac's ally in Glacier IV. Also, the first infraction was a game changing event for an entire quadrant of the Galaxy, though only a few other players have realised this. I am not the only player to drop from this game as a consequence.
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The game is still ongoing.
You are revealing information that should not be revealed publicly outside the game at this stage. It would be completely different if you were waging a propaganda war within the game and sent an in-game message to everybody.
However, you should at least check your facts thoroughly before once again casting aspersions. I suggest you go back to your game files and review carefully the evidence that gives you the perception that I am allied to Mac. The ONLY thing that can possibly have observed, even if you had penscanners that covered the entire universe such that even 98% cloaked ships could be seen on every planet, is the movement of, IIRC, 5 scouts in the same year, from one of Mac's worlds. That was some time ago.
I am unable to comment about the pop drop, other than to repeat that the only information I've received about it from the host is: Mac was given a 2 year ban as punishment. I believe I've indicated this more than once before.
2 people have dropped from the game. You are one of them. I reviewed once again the reasons given by the other player publicly. Time constraints and the belief that the game had become "static" were the reasons proffered. No mention is made of the transgressions of other players.
Apparently, you also doubt this:
| Centaurian wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 18:18 |
Finally, the reason I have felt the need to comment, since it certainly doesn't further my interests in actual game, is that I cleave to the ideal of "innocent until proven guilty".
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Centaurian.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 05 May 2011 21:13 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| [email |
m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 23:14]| magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 14:58 |
What's your objection to calling cheating cheating, though?
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As has been explained before...
And
| magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 14:58 |
there should be a hierarchy of punishments for a hierarchy of severity.
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By calling someone a cheater here in the Forums you're inviting everyone else to ban him from all games, destroy his reputation, and generally end his ability to ever play multiplayer Stars! again.
So no, you cannot just call a minor infraction "cheating". That word is reserved for the major stuff.
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I have never understood this weird insistence on terminology based on euphemistic or dysphemistic connotations.
I guess I shouldn't have expected to find the SAH forum different from the rest of life ("Pro-life", "pro-choice", "terrorist", "rebel", "freedom fighter", etc).
I still don't see the point of it. Things are what they are. "Cheating" = "breaking the rules" = what he did. Why should he be spared the term just because there are far worse forms of cheating?
[Updated on: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:16] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac broke some rules |
Thu, 05 May 2011 21:54 |
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| neilhoward | 
| Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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| Centaurian wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 15:07 |
The game is still ongoing.
You are revealing information that should not be revealed publicly outside the game at this stage.
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OK. I will not elaborate further until the game is finished.
| Centaurian wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 18:18 |
Finally, the reason I have felt the need to comment, since it certainly doesn't further my interests in actual game, is that I cleave to the ideal of "innocent until proven guilty".
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Good on ya for that. It is a nice sentiment. I think you have made a reasoned and helpful contribution to the topic. Cheers
| magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 05 May 2011 18:13 |
I have never understood this weird insistence on terminology based on euphemistic or dysphemistic connotations.
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I still don't see the point of it. Things are what they are. "Cheating" = "breaking the rules" = what he did. Why should he be spared the term just because there are far worse forms of cheating?
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I believe his objection was to what he perceived as my malphemism "cheater", and it's a fair cop so far as it might impact the other player's standing. You both make good arguments for the appropriate use of phrasing, one for meaning and the other for connotation.
magic9mushroom, I completely agree with your lexigraphic distinction, but I will concede M.A's interpretation because explaining that Mac is a "rule-breaker", gives adequate warning to players and hosts considering Mac for future games.
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| Re: Mac broke some rules |
Thu, 05 May 2011 23:40 |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 07:49 |
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the first infraction was a game changing event for an entire quadrant of the Galaxy, though only a few other players have realised this. I am not the only player to drop from this game as a consequence.
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Game changing? I believed it was just a popdrop, and it was "fixed"?  
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Heh, ma@stars.. from what I'm reading between the lines,
1. the host did NOT regen the turns
2. the pop-drop happened, which meant an established planet changed hands.
I'm a bit hazy on this, but I doubt it was a place holder planet.
3. If we are bringing this up, well.. let's get into the exact details instead of guessing what happened and then giving our assumptions 
Who got pop-dropped?, how much pop was dropped?, did mac send a colo ship along with the pop-dropper fleet?, did mac miss a turn inbetween the coloship/pop-dropper fleet?, did mac have an escort fleet that was more than normal for escort.. so in effect a dock killer?, was the turn regenned?, if not, did the planet get back into the hands of the original holder 2-3 turns later?, what was the game-changing factor?
hmm... I think those are a few questions/answers I would want to know, if we are talking about it.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 06 May 2011 00:53 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 12:25 |
It's not the connotations, it's the very real world of trouble that a true cheater would suffer had the accusation been proven authentic.
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Again, this is insane Cthulhu logic to me.
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As it is, most veterans will just laugh at the triviality of this, but please learn to use the proper terms. At least if you want to communicate effectively with the rest of the player community.
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......
Breaking rules IS cheating.
There are just some more fundamental rules than others.
For instance, the rules against hacking into other players' .m files, or using a reader on your own .m file, or FreePop hacking.
After all, all of these are possible, they're just not allowed.
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