Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » Mac is (almost) a cheater
| Mac is (almost) a cheater |
Wed, 27 April 2011 15:43  |
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| neilhoward | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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In the current game Glacier IV I have caught Mac cheating several times.
I can't understand why someone would want to cheat at a game. For it to matter to such an extent, someone would have to be a complete loser in real life.
(edit by Ron, changed thread title)
[Updated on: Fri, 06 May 2011 14:45] by Moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Wed, 27 April 2011 16:15  |
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I am not playing in this game... but I'd be interested what cheat he used, and how did you find that out.
It might help discourage other unsavoury characters from following the same nefarious path.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Wed, 27 April 2011 16:24 |
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| neilhoward wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 01:13 |
In the current game Glacier IV I have caught Mac cheating several times.
I can't understand why someone would want to cheat at a game. For it to matter to such an extent, someone would have to be a complete loser in real life.
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My games matter a lot to me... but I won't think about cheating  .
Edit - Nevermind the trolling. Bad post.
[Updated on: Thu, 28 April 2011 02:32]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Wed, 27 April 2011 23:42 |
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| neilhoward |
| Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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| loucipher wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 13:15 |
I am not playing in this game... but I'd be interested what cheat he used, and how did you find that out.
It might help discourage other unsavoury characters from following the same nefarious path.
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I have only seen blatant disregard for game rules, but suspect there is more. This game has random events, but catching the MT is prohibited. Since weapons, construction, and propulsion must be expensive, BET must be taken, and the game has slow tech, so a tech gain from MT would be huge. Maciekkl acknowledged the rule, but caught the MT anyway.
Previously, Maciekkl broke the rule forbidding popdrop, and anticipating a two year ban, made orders accordingly.
[Updated on: Thu, 28 April 2011 04:39] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 28 April 2011 12:27 |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| neilhoward wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 22:42 |
| loucipher wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 13:15 |
I am not playing in this game... but I'd be interested what cheat he used, and how did you find that out.
It might help discourage other unsavoury characters from following the same nefarious path.
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I have only seen blatant disregard for game rules, but suspect there is more. This game has random events, but catching the MT is prohibited. Since weapons, construction, and propulsion must be expensive, BET must be taken, and the game has slow tech, so a tech gain from MT would be huge. Maciekkl acknowledged the rule, but caught the MT anyway.
Previously, Maciekkl broke the rule forbidding popdrop, and anticipating a two year ban, made orders accordingly.
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As creator of the original Glacier games, I can tell you that hosting those games was a chore. There seemed to be 1 or 2 people each game that thought that following rules was to difficult, to much work, or just not something they "didn't have time for".
The person who broke the rules would always call foul, blame me for not communicating enough about the rules, or that they were to complex to follow. Pure rubbish.
I put the rule breakers in several groups.
* out right cheaters
* I made a mistake, sorry!
* I think I can bend the rules my way
* I am a blithering idiot that should not have joined a game that requires me to pay attention
Honestly, I don't think I had any "Out right cheaters" in the first 3 games. I think all of them fell into the last 3 catagories.
So, I would be loathe to say that the person is a cheater, without real good reason. That is not to say that someone should not be punished. Usually punishment serves 2 purposes. It evens out a percieved gain, and it reinforces that the person should pay attention to the rules.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 28 April 2011 13:39 |
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| Orange |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| neilhoward wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 23:42 |
| loucipher wrote on Wed, 27 April 2011 13:15 |
I am not playing in this game... but I'd be interested what cheat he used, and how did you find that out.
It might help discourage other unsavoury characters from following the same nefarious path.
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I have only seen blatant disregard for game rules, but suspect there is more. This game has random events, but catching the MT is prohibited. Since weapons, construction, and propulsion must be expensive, BET must be taken, and the game has slow tech, so a tech gain from MT would be huge. Maciekkl acknowledged the rule, but caught the MT anyway.
Previously, Maciekkl broke the rule forbidding popdrop, and anticipating a two year ban, made orders accordingly.
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I am playing in this Glacier IV game. Let us not go overboard here. People make mistakes especially in long games with a large set of rules. Sloppy mistakes are made all the time, in my cases almost every other turn.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 28 April 2011 16:00 |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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| slimdrag00n wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 14:34 |
Rules are meant to be followed for a reason and especially the same person breaking two rules to get tech......
......ALl the rules and bugs are listed in the forum. Everyone here knows them and its up to them to know what is allowed in the game they are playing in.
Multi infraction of breaking rules meets the ban hammer!
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Just curious. Maybe I missed something. Where in the forum game post did it say no MT catching allowed? Under the game rules, all I read was MT toys will be legal. How can MT toys be legal, and MT catching not allowed?
BlueTurbit Country/RockReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Thu, 28 April 2011 16:22 |
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| Orange |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 215
Registered: November 2005
Location: TO, ONT, CA | |
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| BlueTurbit wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 16:00 |
| slimdrag00n wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 14:34 |
Rules are meant to be followed for a reason and especially the same person breaking two rules to get tech......
......ALl the rules and bugs are listed in the forum. Everyone here knows them and its up to them to know what is allowed in the game they are playing in.
Multi infraction of breaking rules meets the ban hammer!
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Just curious. Maybe I missed something. Where in the forum game post did it say no MT catching allowed? Under the game rules, all I read was MT toys will be legal. How can MT toys be legal, and MT catching not allowed?
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Host forgot to click no random events in the set up to stop MTs.
No catching MT rule added to the game page.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 09:10 |
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| Centaurian |
 | Petty Officer 3rd Class |
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2010 | |
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| mlaub wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 12:27 |
As creator of the original Glacier games, I can tell you that hosting those games was a chore. There seemed to be 1 or 2 people each game that thought that following rules was to difficult, to much work, or just not something they "didn't have time for".
The person who broke the rules would always call foul, blame me for not communicating enough about the rules, or that they were to complex to follow. Pure rubbish.
I put the rule breakers in several groups.
* out right cheaters
* I made a mistake, sorry!
* I think I can bend the rules my way
* I am a blithering idiot that should not have joined a game that requires me to pay attention
Honestly, I don't think I had any "Out right cheaters" in the first 3 games. I think all of them fell into the last 3 catagories.
So, I would be loathe to say that the person is a cheater, without real good reason. That is not to say that someone should not be punished. Usually punishment serves 2 purposes. It evens out a percieved gain, and it reinforces that the person should pay attention to the rules.
-Matt
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I've fallen back, unthinkingly, on standard designs in a glacier game and have been punished for it since it broke the rules.
In other games I've read the HWF original game parameters (when a change/update/clarification had clearly been posted on the game page/been emailed and I should have seen it!), thought what I was doing was OK only to realise I'd broken rules when the fat controller rolled me for it.
In still others, I've looked to the game page expecting to find the HWF original game parameters, not seen anything, and assumed I was OK to do stuff I wasn't actually allowed to do.
If memory serves, these rule breaches have always occurred when I've been rushing to submit a turn.
These have usually embarrassed me, caused me more grief than it would have been worth to break the rules deliberately and probably diminished my standing amongst those of my Stars! playing peers who've never screwed up by the numbers.
More specifically, regarding the current accusation, the main points I drew from it are:
1. "several" means 2
2. it is unusual when playing a turn to place orders that extend beyond the next turn.
Centaurian.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 10:23 |
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Everyone agrees here that breaking in-game arrangements is a done part in stars!... something that will reduce your trust in the player, but not something that will cause you to call his victory a false victory.
However cheating against the host's rules and/or stars rule (if done intentionally) is just unfair and unsporting.
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Oh btw Centurian, I don't agree with your reading of the original accusation.
| Centaurian wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 18:40 |
More specifically, regarding the current accusation, the main points I drew from it are:
1. "several" means 2
2. it is unusual when playing a turn to place orders that extend beyond the next turn.
Centaurian.
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I set a number of 3-5 year commands when I play my turn.
In one of my games where I have 125 fleets with the majority (100+) follow cyclic orders or have multi-year orders set out.
However, even with such a high % of my fleet carrying out multi-year orders, I still have to check on 20 odd fleets a year...
It's really easy to identify ban-evading orders compared to regular multi-orders :
The guy setting ban-evading orders will have NO fleets idle in the next 2-3 years.
Also, your counting several = 2 doesn't stand for anything.
Does someone need to cheat more than 2 times to be counted as a cheater?
If it's a genuine mistake, then it's another matter... but no one catches an MT by mistake.. even if I give him the benefit of the doubt for the pop-dropping incident.
It takes atleast 2-3 years to set up the minerals/LFs for catching an MT.
It prima-facie appears to be actual cheating, planned out in advance, not in a 'rushed' turn.
Edit - ofcourse, I've made certain goof-ups .... but when I do realise it, I myself bring it to the notice of my host, saying it was an honest mistake... and I make sure that I don't let it happen a 2nd time.
[Updated on: Fri, 29 April 2011 10:28]
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 10:32 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 23:43 |
| slimdrag00n wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 02:48 |
I think cheating is bad but whats worse is when someone talks to you like they are your friend and you are allies and then you get back stabbed.
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It's a strategy game. Rule-bending and back-stabbing are quite an integral part of it. As are the proper countermeasures. 
Cheating is not, and should be clipped in the bud. 
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Rule bending is not Ok. If you try to exploit the rules, or game system, that is cheating.
Example: No Chaff
Everyone knows what this means. So, when you are faced with a superior Arm Missile force, and you choose to build a new frigate design by the thousands, with 1 yakima and 1 engine. Then claim they are a cheap mine sweeper... You are trying to bend the rules to your advantage, and you are a cheater.
There is nothing glorious about cheating. If you do, somehow, end up winning by cheating, all you have proved is that you are too stupid to win without resorting to cheating.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 14:11 |
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| Eagle of Fire | 
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5 | |
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Rule bending happen every game.
Example: in a previous game I played, there was a clear max allies of 2 per alliance. When me and my ally began to ram another player, the said player was "rescued" by another alliance (which won the game in the end), supposedly done by a trade and/or NAP. So the player we were ramming got supplied with defense, tech and free planets in the middle of the other alliance territory so we could not reach that player and grab his planets easily.
How was that not a 3 player alliance, against the specific rules of that game? Yet, they won and they were not even seriously accused of cheating... Or, more to the point, of "bending the rules" to their advantage.
I've come to a point in which I know I have to expect a lot of thins kind of play in any STARS! game. I have never been part of a game in which someone didn't say at least twice "I'm pretty sure this player is doing something dodgy, I know what it is, but I can't prove it because it will be my word against his and he'll be given the benefit of the doubt"...
That's how STARS! work from my perspective at the very least.
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I am on a hot streak... Literally.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 17:58 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| mlaub wrote on Sat, 30 April 2011 05:30 |
| Eagle of Fire wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 13:11 |
Rule bending happen every game.
Example: in a previous game I played, there was a clear max allies of 2 per alliance.
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Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, that is very annoying and I have experieced that myself in many games. And 1 of the people in this thread has done it flagrantly in a game I was in, a while back (Lost that one). For the most part, I seperate those incidents from the "cheating" tag. Why? Well, it is more a social dynamic then a game mechanic.
-Matt
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Also the line between pointing out "this guy is at war with me, it would be easy for you to take him out since his forces would be split" and an alliance is very, VERY thin.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 18:18 |
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| Centaurian |
| Petty Officer 3rd Class |
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2010 | |
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| nmid wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 10:23 |
It takes at least 2-3 years to set up the minerals/LFs for catching an MT.
It prima-facie appears to be actual cheating, planned out in advance, not in a 'rushed' turn.
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Please understand that I don't know the circumstances as you appear to.
Consider:
MT appears at corner right next to your HW. It's mid game. Your HW has lots of minerals and all those old transports and a few LF's are lying around your HW having performed various duties. You merge them all and find that instead of scrapping all the oldies you have just enough space to put on enough minerals and catch it that turn.
MT has been zooming along headed your way and you've decided that you won't bother wasting minerals. As it is about to go by you realize you have enough ships to meet it and make a spur of the moment decision ...
I know both scenarios have applied to me in the past.
I believe what I'm saying is that I can conceive of situations where a genuine mistake can be made.
My points about "several" and "turns" were perhaps too subtle.
The first point was a reference to the tone of the accusation. If it is genuine there is no need to inflate its severity by using the word "several".
The second point I drew attention to because it appears to be the primary evidence for the accusation. Apparently, the accuser, perhaps in conjunction with others, had all the accused ships under scan and observed no inactive ships for the duration of the 2 year ban. As a participant of the game I've received no such indication that this evidence was available. Were this evidence available, I have to wonder why this wasn't brought to the attention of the host, or if it was, why the host did not consider it sufficient to warrant further action.
I also note that the host issued another ban of 2 years for the second offence. IIRC correctly the host has access to game files and is therefore in the best position to determine whether cheating took place.
Finally, the reason I have felt the need to comment, since it certainly doesn't further my interests in actual game, is that I cleave to the ideal of "innocent until proven guilty".
Centaurian.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 19:18 |
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| neilhoward |
| Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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| mlaub wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 09:27 |
... following rules was to difficult, to much work, or just not something they "didn't have time for".
The person who broke the rules would always call foul, blame me for not communicating enough about the rules, or that they were to complex to follow. Pure rubbish.
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Yeah, his excuses were along these lines. Mac said (about catching the MT) it was the hosts fault for not putting it on the OP in the game thread, but it has already been explained that the development came more than 2 weeks after the OP, so could not be edited. There is even record of Mac commenting on the rule being added to the game page, but he still claims it is someone else's fault. As for the illegal pop-drop, Mac claimed he forgot "because he was doing it in other games".
Where does this bravo sierra end? I forgot I wasn't supposed to tech trade? I forgot I wasn't supposed to hex-edit my files to upload minerals to my homeworld? I forgot I wasn't supposed to play two races in a game, and the host said no pregame alliances, he didn't say anything about sock puppets?
meh
You make a good point though, Matt. Perhaps Mac did not break the rules on purpose, but I find that dubious. Others can judge for themselves if it is worth playing with him.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 21:31 |
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| m.a@stars |
| Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| mlaub wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 16:32 |
Rule bending is not Ok. If you try to exploit the rules, or game system, that is cheating.
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I never said it was OK. But I don't think it should be lumped together with what most people call "cheating", that is, file editing, bug-exploiting, running 2 races at once, et al. 
| Quote: |
Example: No Chaff
Everyone knows what this means. So, when you are faced with a superior Arm Missile force, and you choose to build a new frigate design by the thousands, with 1 yakima and 1 engine. Then claim they are a cheap mine sweeper... You are trying to bend the rules to your advantage, and you are a cheater.
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What an interesting example! So if those "chaff-ish" FFs are actually used only as mine-sweepers, not even crashing mines, you'd still call the owner not just a rule-bender, but also a cheater? 
And what if there were a few hundred old Coll FFs laying around from an early rush and their owner decided to bring them along his big BB fleet to act as missile-bait? They were built as mainline ships, but will die in a role that many would call "chaff-ish", and you'd call their owner not just a rule-bender, but a cheater? 
[Updated on: Fri, 29 April 2011 21:35]
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme!  Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 22:26 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 20:31What an interesting example! So if those "chaff-ish" FFs are actually used [b |
only[/b] as mine-sweepers, not even crashing mines, you'd still call the owner not just a rule-bender, but also a cheater?
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I have played this game for a long time, and have never seen anyone build a 1 yak mine sweeper. So, I am lumping that statement into the rule bender group. Or, a better name would be a rules lawyer. That type of BS is why make a lot of specific rules. And, yes, I would punish you, probably by making you delete the design, unless they were successfully used as chaff. If they were successfully used as chaff, the punishment would fit the perceived gain. If that meant you lose 10 fully populated planets and your fleet, so be it.
| Quote: |
And what if there were a few hundred old Coll FFs laying around from an early rush and their owner decided to bring them along his big BB fleet to act as missile-bait? They were built as mainline ships
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I'll stop you right there. If they were ever mainline ships at some point, then they had 3 Coll, not 1. Also, the fact that they were a main line ships, in and of itself, answers the question of their true purpose. So, go ahead and use them in battle.
It's sad you can't see the line that is so obviously there.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Mac is a cheater |
Fri, 29 April 2011 22:42 |
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| Centaurian |
| Petty Officer 3rd Class |
Messages: 41
Registered: November 2010 | |
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| neilhoward wrote on Fri, 29 April 2011 19:18 |
| mlaub wrote on Thu, 28 April 2011 09:27 |
... following rules was to difficult, to much work, or just not something they "didn't have time for".
The person who broke the rules would always call foul, blame me for not communicating enough about the rules, or that they were to complex to follow. Pure rubbish.
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Yeah, his excuses were along these lines. Mac said (about catching the MT) it was the hosts fault for not putting it on the OP in the game thread, but it has already been explained that the development came more than 2 weeks after the OP, so could not be edited. There is even record of Mac commenting on the rule being added to the game page, but he still claims it is someone else's fault. As for the illegal pop-drop, Mac claimed he forgot "because he was doing it in other games".
Where does this bravo sierra end? I forgot I wasn't supposed to tech trade? I forgot I wasn't supposed to hex-edit my files to upload minerals to my homeworld? I forgot I wasn't supposed to play two races in a game, and the host said no pregame alliances, he didn't say anything about sock puppets?
meh
You make a good point though, Matt. Perhaps Mac did not break the rules on purpose, but I find that dubious. Others can judge for themselves if it is worth playing with him.
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Offering an excuse of why the violation of rules occurred is different from offering that excuse as a reason why the punishment issued shouldn't apply/or why the rule should not apply in the first instance.
Forgetting not to do something you usually do is completely different to forgetting not to do something that you should never do/have never done.
Centaurian.
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