[Updated on: Fri, 06 May 2011 01:05]

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Intent is irrelevant. It is the action which give you an advantage over something which is restricted which call for the cheating flag.

Beside, as I said earlier in this topic but which probably got buried in the spam, cheating per se is not really as big an offense as MA try to put it. It is only a big deal for him, trying to play on words to define several shades of whatever gray he sees. If you take responsibility and assume what you did then it is hardly a big deal too. Claiming innocence, however, is not a real defense.

I dare you try to win in court by saying "but I didn't know the law". I am pretty sure any judge will find you guilty of whatever you did simply because you said that. "Ignorance of the law does not constitute a defense" is probably one of the most known juridical sentence in the whole world..!

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Eagle of Fire wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 17:01

Well Gible, actually I think that glossary or term list or rule list or whatever it could be called would have no place on the Wiki because it would mostly be for use on Autohost.

hehe...the wiki IS on Autohost now

Quote:

The way I see it, it is a win/win scenario here: everybody help make a list of rules with explanations on what is possible and what is not possible under the rules so everything get cleared up before the game. That would prevent people feeling the rules of the game changed in the middle if the host actually had something else in mind. On the hosting side, the host could simply read the rule list and pick what he thinks fits best the spirit of his game. Simplier, faster and with much reduced chance of surprise later in the game. The way I see this, it would be something like this: 1.) The game restrict the amount of allies in this game to X... 1.A) Where "allies" refer to the players you can set as friends in the relation window. 1.B) Where "allies" refer to any other players which have direct helpful relations with you, would it be trade or exchange of any kind. 1.C) Same as 1.B, except that any obvious attempt to circumvent the previous rule would be harshly dealt with. Example: obvious wolf/lamb exchanges or pop drops between players who are already at their maximum number of allies.

Short answer.. oh hell no.

I've taken part in creating enough in-game NAP/alliance treaties to know that how much of a nightmare it can be haggling the details for a mere 2-4 partners nevermind trying to create an optional list to cover everyone.

OTOH if you're suggesting a game of Nomic, I'd be up for that - in the Circular File.

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gible wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 01:29

OTOH if you're suggesting a game of Nomic, I'd be up for that - in the Circular File.

Stars: The game of Parliamentary Debate!

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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 06:53

Again, this is insane Cthulhu logic to me.

Ignorance of the rules doesn't free you from obeying them.

Quote:

Breaking rules IS cheating. There are just some more fundamental rules than others.

You can say that... privately. Here the rule that you're not allowed to break is that you cannot use certain words, hurl certain accusations, at will.

Or you might find yourself labeled not just a rule-breaker, but perhaps a cheater too.

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Eagle of Fire wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 07:24

cheating per se is not really as big an offense as MA try to put it.

Obviously the minor stuff, like what Mac did, has little or no importance whatsoever outside the games where it happens.

What you don't remember, or don't want to acknowledge, is that for more than a decade the general consensus among this community of players is that only the major stuff was even worth mentioning, let alone taking measures against.

So for all practical purposes, your definition of "cheating" doesn't really matter. Wikipedia is not the authoritative source on how we run our show. We are. If you don't want to play along, fine, that's your problem.

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[email

m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 21:17] What you don't remember, or don't want to acknowledge, is that for more than a decade the general consensus among this community of players is that only the major stuff was even worth mentioning, let alone taking measures against.

I don't agree with that.. at all !!
Perhaps a change is in order.

Edit - Yea.. adding ma@star's next reply as a quote before the reply itself. Didn't want to double post.

m.a@stars wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 21:20

Which is why the major cheats, all of them well known for a long time, deserve a different punishment than that of the minor stuff, where it does actually happen often that people don't understand or just plain forget what the game-rule was.

That I agree with.
Minor stuff = minor cheats () does require punishment

[Updated on: Fri, 06 May 2011 11:53]

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Eagle of Fire wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 07:24

I dare you try to win in court by saying "but I didn't know the law". I am pretty sure any judge will find you guilty of whatever you did simply because you said that. "Ignorance of the law does not constitute a defense" is probably one of the most known juridical sentence in the whole world..!

Which is why the major cheats, all of them well known for a long time, deserve a different punishment than that of the minor stuff, where it does actually happen often that people don't understand or just plain forget what the game-rule was.

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nmid wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 17:48

Minor stuff = minor cheats () does require punishment

... world-changing, life-defining, faith-shattering events for some people...

But the punishment should be adequate.

And those wanting to know whether others are trustworthy (or even should be banned from games) should not be forced to wade thru vast quantities of threads where every minor offender (or suspected offender) was listed.

That's what private game Forums are for. Leave the public Forums for the important stuff.

At least until a public "Whiners Alley" is created, which serious players can then safely ignore.

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Eagle of Fire wrote on Fri, 06 May 2011 01:24

Intent is irrelevant. It is the action which give you an advantage over something which is restricted which call for the cheating flag. Beside, as I said earlier in this topic but which probably got buried in the spam, cheating per se is not really as big an offense as MA try to put it. It is only a big deal for him, trying to play on words to define several shades of whatever gray he sees. If you take responsibility and assume what you did then it is hardly a big deal too. Claiming innocence, however, is not a real defense. I dare you try to win in court by saying "but I didn't know the law". I am pretty sure any judge will find you guilty of whatever you did simply because you said that. "Ignorance of the law does not constitute a defense" is probably one of the most known juridical sentence in the whole world..!

Lets say the host says no mine damage dodge. But doesn't elaborate on it much except for saying you cant put 1 frigate with a DD sweeper to keep the DD alive for one more turn. So the host is thinking if he sees anyone using a single frigate with a DD used for sweeping he would ban them for a turn. He expects everyone to use 5 Destroyers and only 5 destroyers but does not say so.

Your telling me that If someone used two frigates and a DD in one fleet you would call them a cheater for not understanding the Hosts half ass rule with a million loop holes? Host thinks two frigates is under same category as 1 frigate but did not say so. He would be branded a cheater even though he only said 1 frigate but he used 2 or 3. You would blame him for not asking if its ok when he shouldn't have to.

I think I have more of a hard time wanting to play with someone who thinks like you then an actual cheater who cheats using a game changing cheat/bug. I would not risk being called a cheater for something so trivial.

Why compare anything to court? Sense when has our court ever been fair. There are more laws probably protecting the guilty then there is to protect the innocent.
You are in fact guilty unless proven innocent half the cases!

But sense we are comparing..
I do know that If I broke the law with something not so bad I would get a misdemeanor for stealing that pack of gum and its no big deal and no one needs to know or call me a thief for steeling one pack of gum that is just childish. But if I shot someone Intentionally I would be breaking a big law and I would get a felony. I would do my time and get out and Every job or g/f I looked for I would have to state that I am a Felon. (If I shot someone unintentionally I would be punished but I would not be branded as a murderer.)

Why should I be branded a felon for stealing a damn pack of 25 cent gum?
That's absurd!

Now apply that to the guy who followed the rules according to the host. Brand him a cheater because the hosts rule was misleading about using one firgate and a DD?

Sure mac cheated and it messed up Neil and others badly. Only someone retarded would pop drop on purpose in a game its not allowed. Its obvious anyone would report it and he has a 100% probability of getting caught. (I do think the punishment should have been greater for mac to teach him responsibility for his actions and there should have been regens)But I know his intentions were not to purposelessly mess up the game.(He shouldnt be allowed to take the win) He forgot the rule somehow. Crap happens. No one is perfect.

Iv seen so many people say every game they have been in someone has broke a rule.
Where is the list of all the cheaters displayed for everyone to see that everyone has seen in games. I bet the list is huge. I only know of one real cheater and that's Micha.

Could you imagine if we listed everyone we though was a cheater where do you think this forum would escalate to?

Seems stupid Mac has more publicity as a cheater then Micha who used game files to cheat.

Lets leave the guy alone already for stealing that Pack of Gum.

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Young players know the rules, but older players know the exceptions.

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