Since I apparently cannot add a post to the stickied thread, I shall make a new one.

Warp 10.05 needs adding.

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 15:39

Since I apparently cannot add a post to the stickied thread, I shall make a new one. Warp 10.05 needs adding.

10.05*10.05 = 101 LY..

Are you talking about the possibility of moving 100.99 LY using Warp 10?

so ..
"Stars! does not consider decimals in LY distance traveled, so you can move an extra .99 LY beyond the square of the Warp speed you have set your ships."

Report message to a moderator

nmid wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 21:21

magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 15:39 Since I apparently cannot add a post to the stickied thread, I shall make a new one. Warp 10.05 needs adding. 10.05*10.05 = 101 LY.. Are you talking about the possibility of moving 100.99 LY using Warp 10? so .. "Stars! does not consider decimals in LY distance traveled, so you can move an extra .99 LY beyond the square of the Warp speed you have set your ships."

I don't believe it works on multi-year journeys. It's more that the check for "does it reach waypoint this year" runs off "is it less than (speed+1)".

Highly situational, of course.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 11:09

Warp 10.05 needs adding.

That is not a bug, but just an effect of the coordinates system. Every warp speed allows traveling more than exactly warp*warp lys due to margins in the coordinates of the trip. Actually, you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of trips of exactly warp*warp length.

The real bug is when multi-year trips take longer than Stars! displays initially due to coordinate uncertainties that make some hops fall short of their guesstimated length due to the same coordinate uncertainties.

Report message to a moderator

nmid wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 12:18

For multi-level journeys, you don't see the effect because the game makes you travel only exact rounded distances for the middle years.

Nope. It works exactly as single-hop trips. It goes mostly unnoticed because the "excess" of one hop gets cancelled by the "shortness" of another.

And yes, there's often trips just a ly or a couple lys too long that can nevertheless be made in the desired time at the desired warp by tweaking the intermediate coordinates of each turn's hop.

Just another reason to pay attention to your shipping routes, gentlemen.

[Updated on: Sat, 12 March 2011 18:29]

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 15:38

And yes, there's often trips just a ly or a couple lys too long that can nevertheless be made in the desired time at the desired warp by tweaking the intermediate coordinates of each turn's hop.

There's even a tool to find those intermediate coordinates: http://craebild.dk/hab_range_tool/fuelusage.html

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 12 March 2011 21:45

One that is used by advanced players and usually kept secret.

Advanced? Perhaps. Secret? Not by a long way!

See for example this Academy Thread from 2003

And the original version of that list of tricks is from 1999.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 13 March 2011 08:01

Chaff is on that list, as is Split Fleet Dodge.

That's because "Split Fleet Dodge" is an actual bug, and too many people call chaff a bug too, which it actually isn't.

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Sun, 13 March 2011 21:42

magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 13 March 2011 08:01 Chaff is on that list, as is Split Fleet Dodge. That's because "Split Fleet Dodge" is an actual bug, and too many people call chaff a bug too, which it actually isn't.

Just because you like a bug does not make it not-a-bug.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 13 March 2011 21:52

a natural loophole in the code.

Indeed, as it was the Jeffs who put it there with their "one missile one kill" rule.

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 13 March 2011 21:34

Just because you like a bug does not make it not-a-bug.

Geee, the same old game that never gets old!

Just because you want to call something in some weird way doesn't give you the right to make it stick, just like lumping two different things together in the same thread won't make them related.

I don't care how many people call chaff or warp 10.04 bugs. They aren't. They were put there just the way they are by the game's developers. Chaff adds balance. Warp 10.04 is just a harmless artifact or the coordinate system. Find something else to complain about. Try to make sense while you're at it. It will be good for you.

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 14 March 2011 09:42

magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 13 March 2011 21:34 Just because you like a bug does not make it not-a-bug. Geee, the same old game that never gets old! Just because you want to call something in some weird way doesn't give you the right to make it stick, just like lumping two different things together in the same thread won't make them related. I don't care how many people call chaff or warp 10.04 bugs. They aren't. They were put there just the way they are by the game's developers. Chaff adds balance. Warp 10.04 is just a harmless artifact or the coordinate system. Find something else to complain about. Try to make sense while you're at it. It will be good for you.

That a bug isn't a problem doesn't make it not a bug!

And the list even says "Known Bugs/'Features'"!

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 14 March 2011 00:56

the list even says "Known Bugs/'Features'"!

"features", limitations, outright coding mishaps, exploits, inconsistencies... the coordinate system is none of these.

Chaff was intended. Like it or hate it, but it's not a bug. It's a weird enough quirk that many people think it should be removed. The Jeffs refused to do that, so it stays and plays its part in the game balance.

You aren't the 1st who's mistaken in something like this, nor, alas, will you be the last. Luckily for everybody the matter isn't decided by vote.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Mon, 14 March 2011 01:29]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 14 March 2011 00:28

That's nothing to do with this bug. That's merely pointing out that moving diagonally is moving sqrt(2) ly.

The sqrt(2) is an irrational number... and so are you.

Maybe: Screen grid coordinates are limited to coordinates like, x,y (1210,1140), then a diagonal movement would end up at the nearest screen grid coordinate, not fractions of screen grid coordinates.
Therefore the diagonal ship movement would not be exactly the distance selected, but slightly more or less. This does not apply to horizontal and vertical moves, as they are exactly 1 ly apart in distance.
If you study your diagonal movements you will see that they are either slightly more or less than your exact speed distance: 9.99 or 10.4, or whatever, versus an even 10 ly. Even when you set the waypoint to more than 10 ly range, you will see the first move was not exactly 10 ly.
I expect it has to do with the grid that keeps track of ship locations, etc.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 March 2011 03:27]

Report message to a moderator

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 14 March 2011 02:50

Please explain how rounding errors allowing you to travel further than is meant to be allowed is not a bug.

What rounding errors? Further than exactly who meant to be allowed??

The Game Developers (a.k.a the Jeffs) decided that it should be just that way. It's been documented and well-known since the beginning. Their math is, at least in this, flawless. The coordinate system works that way. That it doesn't seem that way to you is not their nor anyone else's fault.

The issue has now been explained at length, perhaps even ad nauseam. Whatever still bugs you about it go hash with a good book on elementary math. Playing the Tutorial again won't hurt either. Paying due attention to the game's interface, workings and design would be needed if you're still unable to understand what everybody is trying to tell you. Returning your brain to the maker claiming it's hopelessly faulty should only be a last resource.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 March 2011 10:27]

Report message to a moderator

BlueTurbit wrote on Mon, 14 March 2011 08:00

Maybe: Screen grid coordinates are limited to coordinates like, x,y (1210,1140), then a diagonal movement would end up at the nearest screen grid coordinate, not fractions of screen grid coordinates. Therefore the diagonal ship movement would not be exactly the distance selected, but slightly more or less. This does not apply to horizontal and vertical moves, as they are exactly 1 ly apart in distance. If you study your diagonal movements you will see that they are either slightly more or less than your exact speed distance: 9.99 or 10.4, or whatever, versus an even 10 ly. Even when you set the waypoint to more than 10 ly range, you will see the first move was not exactly 10 ly. I expect it has to do with the grid that keeps track of ship locations, etc.

I couldn't have explained it better.

In summation: the game can have integer coordinates or integer trips, not both. Guess what the Jeffs chose. One can wonder why, but not say it's a bug, because it works exactly as intended.

Report message to a moderator