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[Updated on: Wed, 03 March 2010 04:23]

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Micha wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 10:22

If you have ships there they might have orders to not engage the ship type they have in orbit, or to not attack them at all.

We didn't have fancy Battle Orders. And there was no battle because what happened was some obscure magicks related to Transferring stuff between Enemies that didn't even have a free slot to take it.

So we seem to have stumbled onto:

a Game Rules violation.
an undocumented "feature" where Stars! transforms gifted stuff to force it to match previously gifted stuff.

[Updated on: Wed, 03 March 2010 10:08]

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m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 09:08

Micha wrote on Wed, 03 March 2010 10:22 If you have ships there they might have orders to not engage the ship type they have in orbit, or to not attack them at all. We didn't have fancy Battle Orders. And there was no battle because what happened was some obscure magicks related to Transferring stuff between Enemies that didn't even have a free slot to take it.

Enemies can't give ships to each other. "Your gift gets snubbed" or something like that... Are you saying that is what happened? That would be a bug.

Can you explain "transforms"? Do you mean just the name of the ship?

-Matt

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[Updated on: Wed, 03 March 2010 21:39]

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mlaub wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 01:58

Enemies can't give ships to each other. "Your gift gets snubbed" or something like that... Are you saying that is what happened? That would be a bug.

That's actually the Game Rules violation. Our Enemies had forgotten to set us as Enemies, and were thus able to receive our (mistakenly) gifted ships.

Quote:

Can you explain "transforms"? Do you mean just the name of the ship?

More than that. Normally, when several races give ships to one, the initial gift sets up the name and the icon, and further gifts get theirs "casted" to the original, as long as the ship design is the same.

But when further gifts have slightly altered designs, something interesting can happen:

Stars can "transform" the design to make it match that of the original gift. Shields and Engines are "downgraded". Perhaps Armor and Weapons can be, too. So the new gift appears as just another item of the old design.

We're not sure if having full slots is key. Or if it can happen with non-gift designs.

But it sure looks like an undocumented "feature" rather than just a convoluted bug.

Comments, testbeds welcome!

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 07:12]More than that. Normally, when several races give ships to one, the initial gift sets up the name and the icon, and further gifts get theirs "casted" to the original, as long as the ship design is the same. But when further gifts have slightly altered designs, something interesting can happen: Stars can "transform" the design to make it match that of the original gift. Shields and Engines are "downgraded". Perhaps Armor and Weapons can be, too. So the new gift appears as just another item of the old design.

Identical designs (different name, icon) fit indeed in the same slot (though only if *not* transfered in the same turn), true so far. But never in all those years I played Stars! I've seen or heard about a "downgrade" ... you simply get "no capacity to accept the design" message ... testbeds indeed very welcome if so.

Some questions however, looking for a more obvious solution that doesn't require some sort of magical bug.
Does the transferred design still has the same icon? Weight? Do you have a WM on your team that actually saw the design was "transformed"? Why would you assume your enemy doesn't have any free slots? ... ?

mch

[Updated on: Thu, 04 March 2010 03:33]

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 06:59

That's the Game Rules violation, as Open War X demands that everyone but the Teammates be set to Enemy.

Blah, big word "violation". Up to the host of course, but this could be just a technicality, you can set someone to enemy and still treat him as a friend.
They can claim you violated the rules by transferring a ship to an enemy!

mch

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Micha wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 09:43

this could be just a technicality, you can set someone to enemy and still treat him as a friend.

Indeed. But it was a clear rule from the Game Ad. They just ignored it.

Quote:

They can claim you violated the rules by transferring a ship to an enemy!

They have!

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Micha wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 09:31

But never in all those years I played Stars! I've seen or heard about a "downgrade" ... you simply get "no capacity to accept the design" message ... testbeds indeed very welcome if so.

Never did I. Still it would be cool.

Quote:

Does the transferred design still has the same icon? Weight? Do you have a WM on your team that actually saw the design was "transformed"?

No to all. But there might indeed exist a simpler explanation.

Quote:

Why would you assume your enemy doesn't have any free slots? ... ?

Among other things, because they're refusing to give the exact details of what happened. Including that kind of really useful info.

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 09:52

Quote: Does the transferred design still has the same icon? Weight? Do you have a WM on your team that actually saw the design was "transformed"? No to all. But there might indeed exist a simpler explanation.

Are you sure? After transfer the icon of the enemy ship is different from the icon of the builder ship? Weight is different as well? (Check, check, double-check! )

mch

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Micha wrote on Thu, 04 March 2010 23:47

Are you sure? After transfer the icon of the enemy ship is different from the icon of the builder ship? Weight is different as well? (Check, check, double-check! )

As always, knowing what to ask for is the key to getting the right answer.

Icon, weight, name and design matched that of an obsolete enemy design. There's another well-known bug that does that, the "new design camouflages under old ID" joker.

Which is not listed in the "must know" section, by the way.

I've just disabled my h file, and sure enough, the correct weight for the new design appears in my scanners, giving away the bug.

Only this time around it picked two remarkably similar designs for its antics.

It was too good to be true...

[Updated on: Thu, 04 March 2010 18:31]

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[Updated on: Fri, 05 March 2010 03:14]

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bigcanuknaz wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 23:59

Hmmm.... Is this potential for a cheat then...

Not a cheat, just misinformation. Paranoia is your friend!

Quote:

You could design the latest and greatest nubian, build 1, and gift it. then, delete the design, and build the same nubian, but with all outdated components. Much cheaper. Then build these en-masse, and gift them to the same ally. Would they all morph to the latest and greatest design.

You don't have to gift it. Just build some ships, show the design to the enemy (important step!), scrap all, edit the design and start building the new one, and make sure the enemy never ever sees it again in a battle (even more important!). Of course doesn't work against a WM. (And IIRC it does not always work, had something to do with deleting the design instead of editing, not sure.)

I've seen in actually used in a game. Gating around a massive BB fleet ... BB only had a few components to simulate the weight.

Quote:

I see this would be a serious cheat, and should be reported and banned.

Not a cheat to me, and well if you scrap all ships of one design or they die in battle and you create a new ship in the same slot, would you throw the design into a battle to reveal it to your enemy and show you're not cheating?
Of course if it no longer works after deleting the design you could enforce that. But still not a cheat to me.

Quote:

Also possible is the reverse, which is ok, and more natural. You gift a ship... Then you upgrade and gift some more, and they revert to the old design.

Don't understand that last part. After you upgrade and gift the new one that will take up a new slot for your friend and hence a new unknown design to the enemy until scanned in battle.

mch

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bigcanuknaz wrote on Fri, 05 March 2010 23:59

You could design the latest and greatest nubian, build 1, and gift it. then, delete the design, and build the same nubian, but with all outdated components. Much cheaper. Then build these en-masse, and gift them to the same ally. Would they all morph to the latest and greatest design.

The "new design gets old ID" bug only affects 3rd party scanners, having them report false information for as long as the new-old design isn't met in battle.

The "transform" capability is so far largely theoretical, and restricted to cases where designs are, in fact, identical or very nearly so. Some specific testbeds will be needed, I guess.

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Hi!

Quote:

Is this potential for a cheat then... You could design the latest and greatest nubian, build 1, and gift it. then, delete the design, and build the same nubian, but with all outdated components. Much cheaper.

Sorry for not being clear enough: both designs must have the same number and exact type of components. The differrence can be only in position of them (like original BB could have 4 tech-9 sappers in the "forward" 4-slot, but the "gifted" BB could have tech-9 sappers in both 2-slot "wing" slots) and the used image.

Using tech-21 sappers for "original" design, and tech-9 sappers for secondary gifts would result in two gifted designs. No cheat here.

BR, Iztok

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