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| Timings |
Fri, 07 August 2009 17:42  |
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Hey all,
Since getting back into Stars!, I've also been playing/watching a lot of RTS games. One particular concept that I've seen in these games that I haven't seen discussed in a Stars! context is "timing". I want to see what you guys think...
This is easier to conceptualize in the context of a 1v1 duel. It also applies in bigger games, but it's far more complex, so I'll stick to describing what happens in a duel.
Consider a mirror matchup between two HG races that are played differently. They play exactly the same until the 2440s, where both have jihad cruiser tech. At this point, race A decides to build warships while race B decides to tech up to Juggernauts (taking about 5 years to do so).
Race A takes a brief advantage by building up 4 years of warships and using this advantage to strike in year 5, just as race B gets Jugg tech (but can't make use of it yet).
For the next 3-4 years or so, race A will dominate the battlefield, after which race B's superior tech will start turning the tables. The goal of a timing attack is to take advantage of this window of opportunity to do enough damage to gain an edge and mitigate this tech difference. If race A waits too much longer, it will lose any edge it gained in trying to build warships earlier. If it attacks too early, it may not have enough critical mass in warships to do damage (the power of any fleet scales as the square of the number of ships).
We can extend the analysis to asymmetrical race matchups. For example, a WM has 3 windows of superiority - very early (due to +0.5 battlespeed and early weapons tech), mid-game when WM has BCs but everybody else is stuck at CCs, and mid-late when WM has DNs but nobody else has Nubians yet. Thus a WM will fare well against an SS race during mid-game, when the 75% cloak advantage loses its usefulness, but before the SS has had time to research to ultra-cloaks.
We don't have to only consider PRTs in this - economic design matters as well. An -f race will have an advantage right around early-mid game when the factory races are attempting to ramp their economies. Likewise, HG have an advantage later-mid when their factories have already ramped up.
So, how does this all factor into our games? To make full use of timing, you have to consider both race design and playstyle. Design your race so that your economic-based timing and PRT based timing amplifies your advantages and mitigates your weaknesses. You must then play to these advantages.
On that note, we can break down timing into two categories:
1) Offensive timing: attacking when the enemy is weakest.
2) Defensive timing: building defense at the right times.
In a Stars! context, make use of offensive timing to remove an opponent's advantage. A perfect example would be the teching vs attacking situation described above - using a 3-4 year warship advantage to do damage and mitigate a tech advantage.
Make use of defensive timing to reduce your weakness. Consider again the teching vs attacking situation. Knowing that it will be weak just as it achieves juggernaut tech, Race B can build defenses (starbases for example), in 2445, just in time to slow race A's offensive. If race A doesn't attack, so much the better, it will lose its warship advantage anyways.
In the bigger scheme of things, you can use a PRT's defensive strength to cover a period of economic weakness. You could design an SD HP race and use the SD minefield advantage to grab space and hold it during HP's early and mid-game weak periods in order to buy enough time to get a dominant economic lead.
That concludes my discussion of timing. Let me know what you think.
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| Re: Timings |
Fri, 07 August 2009 23:50  |
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Good post 
Yes, this sort of thinking it critical to playing most strategy games (well, any that expose dilemmas between short term advantage vs long term advantage)
A couple of tiny tiny niggles though:
SS stealth doesn't get as weak as you describe. Shadow shields alone bring a SS BB to 91%, without needing to use any of the elec slots. Only drawback is having only 600(+RS) shield each compared to the (higher tech and cost) bear at 800(+RS) that you typically see on BB. And if they want something really invisible, they can achieve 96%(3 SSC), which might be worthwhile. There might even be some cases where they might choose 97% (3+1 SSC) or 98% (3+2 SSC). But 91% for no-elect slots used or 96% with just one set of 3 used is pretty special at that point in the game.
| Quote: |
Make use of defensive timing to reduce your weakness. Consider again the teching vs attacking situation. Knowing that it will be weak just as it achieves juggernaut tech, Race B can build defenses (starbases for example), in 2445, just in time to slow race A's offensive. If race A doesn't attack, so much the better, it will lose its warship advantage anyways.
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That's another example of slowing your race in exchange for short term power. If the other race *wasn't* building ships, but was teching too, and *didn't* build starbases... Now you are the one playing catchup, except this time without any offensive firepower advantage (merely a defensive one.)
If you'd planned to fight with juggs... I'd be using the spare resources on that final turn to build chaff, not armed starbases. That way if you find yourself on the offense versus a race teching or ramping, not under assault, then you have extended your own shipbuilding lead.
Fun decisions  That's how Stars! can hoover up your idle-thinking-time. I can dwell on these decisions for hours, without even opening the game 
[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2009 23:55] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Timings |
Sun, 09 August 2009 04:39 |
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Great response, thanks for the kind words.
| Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 20:50 |
Good post
SS stealth doesn't get as weak as you describe. Shadow shields alone bring a SS BB to 91%, without needing to use any of the elec slots. Only drawback is having only 600(+RS) shield each compared to the (higher tech and cost) bear at 800(+RS) that you typically see on BB. And if they want something really invisible, they can achieve 96%(3 SSC), which might be worthwhile. There might even be some cases where they might choose 97% (3+1 SSC) or 98% (3+2 SSC). But 91% for no-elect slots used or 96% with just one set of 3 used is pretty special at that point in the game.
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You're right, I didn't realize SS could get such well cloaked BBs without using ultra cloaks. However, it doesn't completely negate my point - notice you're talking BBs whereas I'm talking about a WM advantage during the BC era. Of course WM is strong in that era no matter who he faces as BC>>CC, but SS can't really pull off strong surprise attacks in that period.
edit: Yes you can still achieve good cloaking on CCs, but it sacrifices too much in fighting power.
| Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 20:50 |
That's another example of slowing your race in exchange for short term power. If the other race *wasn't* building ships, but was teching too, and *didn't* build starbases... Now you are the one playing catchup, except this time without any offensive firepower advantage (merely a defensive one.)
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Yes, if race A is teching w/o SBs and race B was teching w/SBs, A would be behind. On the other hand, a defensive firepower advantage is meaningless if you aren't going to be attacked (or threatened), so it's basically wasted resources. Defensive timing is best when balanced on a razor's edge - you build JUST enough defenses to beat your enemy JUST as you're about to be attacked.
| Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 20:50 |
If you'd planned to fight with juggs... I'd be using the spare resources on that final turn to build chaff, not armed starbases. That way if you find yourself on the offense versus a race teching or ramping, not under assault, then you have extended your own shipbuilding lead.
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That works assuming you have enough defensive ships to take out his bomber fleet. If you don't, then his jihad ships will clear your chaff and he will then bomb/assault your planets (the bombing/assaulting is essential - it converts a tactical advantage in ships into a strategic advantage in resources).
Good point though - the tactics you use in any given situation will influence the effectiveness of your timing defense greatly.
[Updated on: Sun, 09 August 2009 04:41] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Timings |
Tue, 11 August 2009 20:08 |
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| boomerlu wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 04:39 |
Defensive timing is best when balanced on a razor's edge - you build JUST enough defenses to beat your enemy JUST as you're about to be attacked.
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True, in a duel. But in multi-player games, building defenses is critical, and doing it in moderate amounts early is often very beneficial.
Attackers have a choice on who to attack. Often terrain plays a critical role. But if facing two targets of similar benefit, the attacker will often choose the weaker target. Defenses, armed bases, minefields, and a few ships are often a wise investment (if you are planning on playing defense...)
naz
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| Re: Timings |
Wed, 12 August 2009 16:34 |
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 vonKreedon |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA | |
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Yeah, especially early it helps prevent attacks on you if you can look like you aren't easily digestible. I have a friend who used to build a few CCs and BBs with red lasers as soon as the hulls became available to him and parade them around so that they were seen by his neighbors to cheaply make them think that he might be capable of producing some dangerous ships and be more diplomatic with him then they might otherwise.
[edit] Of course, this can be counter-productive if your neighbor is a WM.
[Updated on: Wed, 12 August 2009 16:35] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Timings |
Thu, 13 August 2009 00:25 |
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Ahh yes, the many intricacies of diplomacy.
Threat deterence, faking strength, faking weakness etc...
So complicated - that's why I stuck to a duel analysis.
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