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I was in a testing mood, and too lazy to search for old threads on the topic, so I just repeated my own old tests again.

RE: Movement:
Fleets departing a colony do not mine there (but might mine at their destination)
Fleets arriving at an unoccupied star do not mine that year
Fleets arriving at their own colony can mine that year (regardless of whether they gated or flew through open space) (AR only, of course, since other races cannot remote mine their worlds)

RE: Timing in OoE:
All Remote Mining occurs after WP0 merge
All Remote Mining occurs before WP1 merge
Remote Mining at your own colony occurs before production
Remote Mining at your own colony occurs before battle
Remote Mining at an uncolonised star occurs after battle

Our current order of events seems correct.


EDIT: cleaned up my list a bit, even managed to confuse myself when I read it a second time. Wasn't clear enough either

[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2009 02:41]

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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 06 August 2009 15:17

I was in a testing mood, and too lazy to search for old threads on the topic, so I just repeated my own old tests again. Fleets departing a colony do not mine there (but might mine at their destination) Fleets arriving at an unoccupied star do not mine that year Fleets arriving at their own colony can mine that year (regardless of whether they gated or flew through open space) (AR only, of course, since other races cannot remote mine their worlds) Remote Mining occurs before production (handy for AR) Remote Mining occurs after WP0 merge Remote Mining occurs before WP1 merge Remote Mining at your own colony occurs before battle Remote Mining at an uncolonised star occurs after battle Our current order of events seems correct.

this thread would tend to disagree.

afaik AR remote mining at colonised worlds happens with regular mining ie before production but with(before) WP1 tasks for uncolonised worlds.

otoh I remember something about AR miners being able to mine on arrival - but only if they merged with an already mining fleet, suggesting that it happens after merges, possibly this only applies for colonised worlds tho. Not sure..never played AR to need to know.

Also..note to self...add links to threads when I change the OOE dammit (I moved the MT meeting and can't remember why)

[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2009 01:18]

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gible wrote on Thu, 06 August 2009 15:17

this thread would tend to disagree. afaik AR remote mining at colonised worlds happens with regular mining ie before production but with(before) WP1 tasks for uncolonised worlds. otoh I remember something about AR miners being able to mine on arrival - but only if they merged with an already mining fleet, suggesting that it happens after merges, possibly this only applies for colonised worlds tho. Not sure..never played AR to need to know. Also..note to self...add links to threads when I change the OOE dammit (I moved the MT meeting and can't remember why)

That thread agrees with what I just wrote above. (At least, it does by the end, once the people (including me) who put forward wrong (untested) information had been given the smackdown.

I stand by all the statements I wrote above. I tested each of them as I wrote them, to make sure it was an accurate response EDIT: except that one that was only for when mining at AR colonies

EDIT: I think I found the line you might've been looking at... I talked twice in my post about exactly when mining happened, and forgot in the first one to state I meant for at colonies. I clarified that line and put it with the others. Thanks for pulling me up on that one

[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2009 02:51]

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Maybe I was misleading by No. 21 of remote mining . IMO it would be more clear, if you write 21 WP0 remote mining (for uncolonized worlds), because there will be no WP1 remote mining after move! Now I understand the OoE that remote mining occurs after ship movement in same turn, because in OoE the WP1-orders are later and WP0-orders before movement.

So I was misleading and realized later, that there is no remote mining after movement, even not as a WP1-order!

At least a more clear information about
event of remote mining with mining ships is needed, imho!

Taka Tuka

[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2009 15:13]

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Taka Tuka wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 03:26

Maybe I was misleading by No. 21 of remote mining . IMO it would be more clear, if you write 21 WP0 remote mining (for uncolonized worlds), because there will be no WP1 remote mining after move! Now I understand the OoE that remote mining occurs after ship movement in same turn, because in OoE the WP1-orders are later and WP0-orders before movement. So I was misleading and realized later, that there is no remote mining after movement, even not as a WP1-order! At least a more clear information about event of remote mining with mining ships is needed, imho! Taka Tuka

Hmmm. OoE currently has:
11. Mining. Including AR *waypoint 1* remote mining of colonized worlds.
and
21. Remote mining

These should probably read something like:
11. Mining. Including AR remote mining of colonized stars.
21. Remote mining of unoccupied stars.

It's not really the place of the OoE to specify the cases where movement does or doesn't allow remote mining, but I suppose it could potentially be written as:
11. Mining. Including AR Waypoint 0 and Waypoint 1 remote mining of colonized stars.
21. Waypoint 0 remote mining of unoccupied stars.

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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 01:29

It's not really the place of the OoE to specify the cases where movement does or doesn't allow remote mining, but I suppose it could potentially be written as: 11. Mining. Including AR Waypoint 0 and Waypoint 1 remote mining of colonized stars. 21. Waypoint 0 remote mining of unoccupied stars.

This I would prefer. The OoE should be clear for the reader (newbie) and should avoid misunderstanding. To improve the OoE with some more information sometimes would be helpful, imo.

Btw, the laying of minefields isn't clear as well in the OoE. If you read the OoE you may understand, that a minelayer can lay a minefield (OoE 27) as a WP1-order after movement (OoE 6) in the same year. But that is impossible, isn't it?

Taka Tuka

{Mod edit: fixed quote}

[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2009 05:25] by Moderator

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Taka Tuka wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 18:45

Btw, the laying of minefields isn't clear as well in the OoE. If you read the OoE you may understand, that a minelayer can lay a minefield (OoE 27) as a WP1-order after movement (OoE 6) in the same year. But that is impossible, isn't it?

SD races can lay mines as a WP1 order after movement.

[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2009 06:43]

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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 07 August 2009 06:42

SD races can lay mines as a WP1 order after movement.

I didn't know. I never have played this race because of time consuming MM . In this case why not write "WP1-laying minefields of SD-race" as an additional event?

Wasn't the OoE written for new players as a kind of help-file? If yes, it should me more specific for avoiding misunderstanding imho. But, if nobody else shares my point of view, you should keep the OoE unchanged and not improve anything of course .

BR, Taka Tuka

[Updated on: Sun, 09 August 2009 02:41]

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Taka Tuka wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 18:39

I didn't know. I never have played this race because of time consuming MM . In this case why not write "WP1-laying minefields of SD-race" as an additional event?

I'll add something like that to the wiki OOE. Micha, the two version are diffent...I think the HWF one needs updating.

Quote:

Wasn't the OoE written for new players as a kind of help-file? If yes, it should me more specific for avoiding misunderstanding imho. But, if nobody else shares my point of view, you should keep the OoE unchanged and not improve anything of course .

No, it was originally written by (very) experienced player as a reminder. The OOEs both here at HWF and at the wiki were written(copied originally) so we could keep it updated as we figured out more of it.

There is little material aimed at very new players. Just a couple of articles and the help file afaik. Every so often I toy with creating something, but haven't really gotten around to it, tho copying the helpfile is a step towards that.

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All together I would be happy to see "remote mining of uncolonized worlds" and "laying of minfields of Non-SD-races" get a position before movement in the OoE .

I have some more questions

If the end of a wormhole is covered by a SD-minefield and the SD-player gave order to detonate this minefield, do arriving fleets from the other end of the wormhole really get damage from this detonating minefield or does detonation occur before arrival of fleets?

In OoE there is one fleet-movement only, no separation in start and end. The OoE has 6. fleet-movement and 10. SD-minefield-detonation. So arriving fleets from wormholes should get damage regarding OoE ... Ihaven't any experience in this yet.

And fleets,flying thru the edge of such a SD-minefield during movement (start outside the minefield and finish movement outside this minefleet) can really be destroyed by detonation of this minefield? If yes, maybe fleet movement could be more detailed with "start of fleet-movement" and "end of fleet-movement".

Taka Tuka

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Taka Tuka wrote on Mon, 10 August 2009 06:30

All together I would be happy to see "remote mining of uncolonized worlds" and "laying of minfields of Non-SD-races" get a position before movement in the OoE

That wouldn't help, since then you'd expect to be able to lay mines and then move on. The key point is its move or mine - not both. Also, that's not when they happen

Quote:

If the end of a wormhole is covered by a SD-minefield and the SD-player gave order to detonate this minefield, do arriving fleets from the other end of the wormhole really get damage from this detonating minefield or does detonation occur before arrival of fleets? In OoE there is one fleet-movement only, no separation in start and end. The OoE has 6. fleet-movement and 10. SD-minefield-detonation. So arriving fleets from wormholes should get damage regarding OoE ... I haven't any experience in this yet.

Yes. no matter how you arrive(space, WH or gate) in an SD minefield you'll get hurt. Worse, because production happens after the detonation, if you're attacking you face fresh undamaged ships(tho only as many as can be built).

Quote:

And fleets,flying thru the edge of such a SD-minefield during movement (start outside the minefield and finish movement outside this minefleet) can really be destroyed by detonation of this minefield? If yes, maybe fleet movement could be more detailed with "start of fleet-movement" and "end of fleet-movement".

No, only your location at the end of movement matters for detonation. You do have to worry about hitting the field tho.

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gible wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 09:30

I'll add something like that to the wiki OOE. Micha, the two version are diffent...I think the HWF one needs updating.

I'll have a look later, currently totally swamped at work. Instead of playing Stars! till 3am I now work till 3am ...

gible wrote on Sun, 09 August 2009 09:30

Quote: Wasn't the OoE written for new players as a kind of help-file? If yes, it should me more specific for avoiding misunderstanding imho. But, if nobody else shares my point of view, you should keep the OoE unchanged and not improve anything of course . No, it was originally written by (very) experienced player as a reminder. The OOEs both here at HWF and at the wiki were written(copied originally) so we could keep it updated as we figured out more of it.

True it was never intended for new players. Some use of it is beyond newbies understanding anyway till they learn the basics like decent race design, getting an economy running, putting together a good fleet composition, ...

Quote:

There is little material aimed at very new players. Just a couple of articles and the help file afaik. Every so often I toy with creating something, but haven't really gotten around to it, tho copying the helpfile is a step towards that.

Maybe some sort of Newbie Stars! OoE would be a good thing, with more explanation, listing the consequences of some particular order (like for example what it means that packet strikes before production and movement), ... what is meant with WP0 and WP1 (for example location of end of movement as gible just mentioned) ...

mch

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[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2009 03:22]

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Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 10 August 2009 19:20

Can you do expanding subsections in wiki pages? (I can't remember the proper name for this... when you click on some text on a page and it opens up to show more info.)

There is Collapsing Tables which I quickly tried and failed to add to the wiki. Scratch that, it works, I just need to make it pretty

As part of inserting the Stars! Players' Guide I added the Tooltip Extension which allows popup info(tooltips) (a tooltip heavy page)

Examples of both can be found on the Stars!wiki editing help

PS to paraphrase myself from somewhere & someothertime: If you're willing to edit and there's a feature at wikipedia or an extension that isn't already at Stars!wiki, let me known and I'll do my best to make it happen.

Quote:

If this is possible... Then Gible's wiki version could show the barebones initially, but expand to show more detailed info - to include the sorts of fine detail we're talking about, when clicked on. That could turn into quite a powerful learning resource, with all the caveats, and maybe even relevant formulas and such. (Imagine clicking on the section on planetary growth, and being given the formulas defining that... Or clicking the section on repairing and seeing the conditions on whether that actually happens to a fleet, and how much repair they get.)

Feel free to run rampant all over the wiki with both tricks.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 August 2009 05:45]

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