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Player Number used for game play. Thu, 02 July 2009 22:54 Go to next message
Xardre is currently offline Xardre

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

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There are lots of hidden and not-by-design features in Stars! which make the game so great. One of these not-by-design features is the advantage played to the lowest player number, and when used correctly can cause utter defeat to your enemies or if used poorly to yourself.

Before reading any further I would strongly suggest you read and understand the Stars! Order of Events and Battle Board Starting Positions found in the Stars! must know forum.

First advantage played by player number is in tech trading. In team games or games with large alliance allowed, players are able to use this to prioritize transfers.

Example by scrapping – If an alliance choose to transfer tech by building the scrapping ships in the orbit of an allies planet the ships will be scrapped in the order of lowest number player to highest number player. This can be used by having the lowest numbered player research build and scrap weapons transfer ships allowing for that tech to be the first roll for successful transfer.

Example by wolf/lamp – When wolf/lambs are used for tech transfer the lowest numbered player’s lambs will be the first to be consumed by battle giving the tech sent by that player first priority for transfer.

Please note that pop dropping for transfer seems to be 100% random as to what tech you gain, not as easily influenced by player number. Honestly I have never tried or can really even think of a way to test for this even being able to be controlled by player’s actions.

The second advantage of player number is in packet attacks. This can be very well used if a PP is luck to gain a low player number, but is still useful for any race. When planning to kill a newly established enemy colony with packets or to soften one up prior to bombing/invasion packet attacks are resolved in player order. This means that if multiple players are attacking the lowest player needs to throw the largest packet, the player with the highest number the smallest placket.

If the lowest numbered player is a PP they could in theory throw a packet large enough that if it doesn’t kill the colony off entirely it would de-terraform the planet to a red (yellow) allowing only 10 defense to be used. This PP advantage is even useful again CA instaforming in the invasion (or bombing) is to occur on the same turn as the packet attack using Waypoint 1 unload tasks.

The third advantage comes with bombing a planet. By coordinating bombing runs a team can first retro bomb a planet to red (if possible) using the lowest player number (which doesn’t have to be a CA just has to have retro bombers from my understanding, though a CA with TT would be far more effective then any other race with normal terraform tech). Next lowest number player then smart bombs the planet taking advantage of the max 10 defense operated on red planets. Third player then kills planet with cherry bombs or invades and takes planet.

The largest advantage of player number would be in determining battle board start positions. By bringing in even an allies scout or leaving that scout out of the battle you can create range for your missile ships or place your enemies missile ships within one turn movement of your beamers. This tactic works by giving position 1 on the battle board to the lowest numbered player, position 2 to the second lowest numbered and so on up to all 16 players. This tactic could quiet honestly be called the true art of fighting for team and alliance games. The only way to make sure if results would then be take into account every enemy ship within 100LY of your planned attack when test bedding battles.

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 03 July 2009 05:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Xardre wrote on Thu, 02 July 2009 22:54

One of these not-by-design features is the advantage played to the lowest player number, and when used correctly can cause utter defeat to your enemies or if used poorly to yourself.

Example by wolf/lamb – When wolf/lambs are used for tech transfer the lowest numbered player’s lambs will be the first to be consumed by battle giving the tech sent by that player first priority for transfer.



I don't agree that race # makes as a big a difference as that. Certainly there are advantages but I don'y think it's a game decider. If it is then I guess I should give up now in Diadochi War II since Olympias (Micha) is race #2 & obviously knows all the tricks whereas Eumenes (me) is race #4.

The description below turned out to be more complex & longer than intended & I thought about not bothering but here goes; I hope you understand it.

Wolf/Lamb
are battles that work exactly as other battles do. Since the purpose of W/L is to transfer tech the order in which battles occur is important in terms of what tech you are likely to get. Each battle that occurs gives you a chance of tech & once you have gained a tech subsequent W/L battles serve no purpose.

I have not been able to determine the secondary sort key determining battle order but the primary sort key is race #.

All battles that involve race #1 occur first, then all battles that involve race #2, then all battles that involve race #3, etc.

If we take a 3-race team such as one of the ones in Open War X & apply this knowledge to W/L tech transfers:
In this example, Races A, B & C have race #s such that A has the lowest race # & C has the highest.
W/L set 1: Race A supplies lambs to wolves of Races B,C
W/L set 2: Race B supplies lambs to wolves of Races A,C
W/L set 3: Race C supplies lambs to wolves of Races A,B

1. Lambs are supplied to all W/L sets & all wolves are present:
Since all 3 races are present in all W/L battles the order & thus chances of getting each tech is determined by the secondary sort key (which I haven't determined).

2. As for (1) except Race B &/or C wolves withdraw from one or more W/L set:
Battle order is exactly as for (1) since Race A is still involved in all battles.

3. As for (1) except Race A wolves withdraw from Set 2:
Now battles involved in W/L set 2 occur after those involved in sets 1 & 3. This results in Race B tech chances still being determined by the secondary sort order but now Race C will get tech from Race A unless all battles in set 1 fail to deliver tech (in which case set 2 gives a chance of tech).

If anyone has managed to determine what the secondary sort key is it might be possible to set up the required set of circumstances to determine an exact order.

W/L BOs
Since all the teams in Open War X contain a pro I guess there's no need for me to set out BOs for W/L for them but I will for others who might find it useful.

Wherever possible a lamb should include a weapon. If so then the lamb BO suggested will cause the lamb to remain stationary, make no attempt to retreat (i.e. no "Disengage in n turns") & will not fire back. The BO assumes that no fuel transports will be present.

Lamb BO:
Primary Target: Fuel Transports
Secondary Target: Fuel Transports
Tactic: Maximise Damage
Attack Who: Everyone

Wolf BO:
Primary Target: Armed Ships
Secondary Target: Any
Tactic: Maximise Damage
Attack Who: race supplying lambs

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 03 July 2009 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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AlexTheGreat wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 11:33

Xardre wrote on Thu, 02 July 2009 22:54

One of these not-by-design features is the advantage played to the lowest player number, and when used correctly can cause utter defeat to your enemies or if used poorly to yourself.

Example by wolf/lamb – When wolf/lambs are used for tech transfer the lowest numbered player’s lambs will be the first to be consumed by battle giving the tech sent by that player first priority for transfer.



I don't agree that race # makes as a big a difference as that. Certainly there are advantages but I don'y think it's a game decider. If it is then I guess I should give up now in Diadochi War II since Olympias (Micha) is race #2 & obviously knows all the tricks whereas Eumenes (me) is race #4.

I agree, race # does not makes that big a difference ... BTW you forgot to include the "Exploding Minefield Dodge" bug that favors SDs with a lower player #.

Quote:

If anyone has managed to determine what the secondary sort key is it might be possible to set up the required set of circumstances to determine an exact order.

That would be fleet #.

First battle is the one in which the lowest player # has his lowest fleet # participating.

mch

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 03 July 2009 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PaulCr

 
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It is usually in player order and then fleet number but occasionally it is possible for the order to be changed. I've not looked into it other than noting that my battles weren't in the expected order occasionally when I was decoding the battle commands from the m files.

Given how I expect the code to work I suspect the actual order depends on who initiates the battle, ie imagine player 1 is friends with 3, neutral with 4 with orders to attack enemies only, 3 and 4 fight though dragging in player 1, I suspect in this case it will be in ordered as if the first race involved was player 3 since when it checked for player 1's fleet it would not have attacked and therefore the battle does not occur at that point but when player 3 is checked a battle occurs, player 3 then asks player 1's fleet for help since they are friends so player 1's fleet gets involved then.

In the above situation I expect all player 1 and player 2 fights would occur first but I haven't checked it since I don't see it being of any use to me since the only reason it could have an effect is gaining tech and the 2 games I'm in don't allow for tech trading.

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 03 July 2009 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xardre is currently offline Xardre

 
Master Chief Petty Officer

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Oki so maybe i over hyped the whole game impact of the player number but still if used propourly it can give quiet the advantage against those who are oblivious of its existance on the battle board.


Edit: Thanks to Alex for explaining Wolf/Lamb exchanges Smile



[Updated on: Fri, 03 July 2009 18:18]

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 03 July 2009 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Micha wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 06:25


Quote:

If anyone has managed to determine what the secondary sort key is it might be possible to set up the required set of circumstances to determine an exact order.

That would be fleet #.

First battle is the one in which the lowest player # has his lowest fleet # participating.
mch


That's what I thought. See below.

PaulCr wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 08:09

It is usually in player order and then fleet number but occasionally it is possible for the order to be changed. I've not looked into it other than noting that my battles weren't in the expected order occasionally when I was decoding the battle commands from the m files.

Given how I expect the code to work I suspect the actual order depends on who initiates the battle, ie imagine player 1 is friends with 3, neutral with 4 with orders to attack enemies only, 3 and 4 fight though dragging in player 1, I suspect in this case it will be in ordered as if the first race involved was player 3 since when it checked for player 1's fleet it would not have attacked and therefore the battle does not occur at that point but when player 3 is checked a battle occurs, player 3 then asks player 1's fleet for help since they are friends so player 1's fleet gets involved then.

In the above situation I expect all player 1 and player 2 fights would occur first but I haven't checked it since I don't see it being of any use to me since the only reason it could have an effect is gaining tech and the 2 games I'm in don't allow for tech trading.



In an earlier game the lowest player # bit seemed always to hold true but the secondary sort key was not fleet # & I checked this both in terms of the lowest race #'s fleets # & my own. I only spent an hour or two so my examination of it was not exhaustive but the secondary sort key was not obvious.

However, I just checked 24 battles in an earlier year of my current game & battle order was exactly in the order expected.

So Paul & I both seem to remember at least one time where the expected order was not the theoretic one but, without knowing why, I guess we need to assume that battles normally occur in the order we all thought they would:

Lowest Race # involved/Lowest Fleet # belonging to Lowest Race # involved

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Sat, 04 July 2009 03:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wasp

 
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It looks like the first battle is in the place with the lowest player/fleet#, even if that fleet doesn't participate in the battle.


Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Sat, 04 July 2009 05:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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Xardre wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 04:54

Example by wolf/lamp – When wolf/lambs are used for tech transfer the lowest numbered player’s lambs will be the first to be consumed by battle giving the tech sent by that player first priority for transfer.

How so? And, why would anyone send more than one kind of Lamb to a W/L transfer? Rolling Eyes

Quote:

Please note that pop dropping for transfer seems to be 100% random as to what tech you gain, not as easily influenced by player number. Honestly I have never tried or can really even think of a way to test for this even being able to be controlled by player’s actions.

If I had to bet, I'd bet lowest player # popdrops 1st (or is popdropped 1st), unless it is planet # that determines precedence. At any rate, if more than 2 races are involved in popdrop xchange, and if they are using the fast 2-drops-per-turn method, it should work ok anyway even if popdrops were in random order. Deal



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In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Mon, 06 July 2009 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Quote:

Example by wolf/lamp – When wolf/lambs are used for tech transfer the lowest numbered player’s lambs will be the first to be consumed by battle giving the tech sent by that player first priority for transfer.

How so? And, why would anyone send more than one kind of Lamb to a W/L transfer?


Wouldnt happen much but say I am a CA and I am attacking you and scouting with RNA&DNA scouts. You are waiting on W12 from your ally. I have the lowest number.
I ping a couple of your worlds planning to attack you.
You kill my scouts and get Bio5. Your wolf lamb doesnt get you W12. I bomb one of your worlds flat as you have no Jihads for your base.

Like I said - not going to come up very often in real games.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Mon, 06 July 2009 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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joseph wrote on Mon, 06 July 2009 15:45

Wouldnt happen much but say I am a CA and I am attacking you and scouting with RNA&DNA scouts. You are waiting on W12 from your ally. I have the lowest number.
I ping a couple of your worlds planning to attack you.
You kill my scouts and get Bio5. Your wolf lamb doesnt get you W12. I bomb one of your worlds flat as you have no Jihads for your base.

Like I said - not going to come up very often in real games.


Heh, I do remember a game (not the details, I was only hosting, not playing) in which this happend, the CA sent bio scrappers to enemy planets.
Not sure if it was player number that also mattered cause scrapping already happens first and thereby messed up the W/L.
Twisted Evil

mch

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Tue, 07 July 2009 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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joseph wrote on Mon, 06 July 2009 15:45

Wouldnt happen much but say I am a CA and I am attacking you and scouting with RNA&DNA scouts. You are waiting on W12 from your ally. I have the lowest number.
I ping a couple of your worlds planning to attack you.
You kill my scouts and get Bio5. Your wolf lamb doesnt get you W12.

Not exactly the situation I had in mind, but yet another good reason to have minefields around. Twisted Evil

Plus, odds would be against the CA. 2 battles against his scouts wouldn't guarantee his transferring useless Bio to his enemies. Deal



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Thu, 09 July 2009 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Micha wrote on Fri, 03 July 2009 06:25


I agree, race # does not makes that big a difference ... BTW you forgot to include the "Exploding Minefield Dodge" bug that favors SDs with a lower player #.
mch


I didn't know about that one until you mentioned it in a recent post. It applies in our current game too.

[email

m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Tue, 07 July 2009 15:14]
joseph wrote on Mon, 06 July 2009 15:45

Wouldnt happen much but say I am a CA and I am attacking you and scouting with RNA&DNA scouts. You are waiting on W12 from your ally. I have the lowest number.
I ping a couple of your worlds planning to attack you.
You kill my scouts and get Bio5. Your wolf lamb doesnt get you W12.


Plus, odds would be against the CA. 2 battles against his scouts wouldn't guarantee his transferring useless Bio to his enemies. Deal


No but it's not far off a coin toss so it would still disrupt the W/L operation - the CA would pass Bio about 3 times in 7.



[Updated on: Thu, 09 July 2009 22:28]

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 10 July 2009 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deuce is currently offline Deuce

 
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While hard to prove, I would consider deliberately exploiting player number mechanics to disrupt tech trade to be cheating.

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Fri, 10 July 2009 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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Deuce wrote on Fri, 10 July 2009 21:22

While hard to prove, I would consider deliberately exploiting player number mechanics to disrupt tech trade to be cheating.



If that's so then you must consider all player number advantages to be cheating.

There are far more serious consequences than disruption of tech trade, eg. serial bombing.

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Sat, 11 July 2009 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
craebild is currently offline craebild

 
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AlexTheGreat wrote on Sat, 11 July 2009 03:38

Deuce wrote on Fri, 10 July 2009 21:22

While hard to prove, I would consider deliberately exploiting player number mechanics to disrupt tech trade to be cheating.



If that's so then you must consider all player number advantages to be cheating.

There are far more serious consequences than disruption of tech trade, eg. serial bombing.



Serial bombing is available to any alliance of two or more players, even if they are the two players with the highest player numbers, so I would not call serial bombing an exploit, I would call serial bombing proper strategic planning.

Deliberately disrupting tech trade is in my opinion an exploit, though, but it is unfortunately hard to prove.



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Re: Player Number used for game play. Sat, 11 July 2009 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AlexTheGreat is currently offline AlexTheGreat

 
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craebild wrote on Sat, 11 July 2009 05:36

Serial bombing is available to any alliance of two or more players, even if they are the two players with the highest player numbers, so I would not call serial bombing an exploit, I would call serial bombing proper strategic planning.

Deliberately disrupting tech trade is in my opinion an exploit, though, but it is unfortunately hard to prove.


I totally agree that serial bombing is not cheating but it is still possible only because the lower race #'d race bombs first. If it were random then it would not be possible.

Using race # is not cheating to disrupt tech trade IMO either though. The disrupting race does not need to have a low race # to do this - you just need to send in the "scrappers" to the lowest race involved in the W/L operation. eg.
Opponent alliance: races 4 & 7
Your race # = 9
The W/L battles obviously involve races 4,7
"Scrappers" sent to race 4 involve races 4,9
You need to engage race 4 (the lowest race # involved in both) with lower fleet #s than the ones involved in the W/L operation & NOT race 4 bases since battles against fleets occur before those against a base only.

Also, if your race # is high but your ally has a lower race # than the enemy allied ones then your ally could send in any piece of chaff while you send in the disrupting "scrappers". In this case your ally's fleet #s determine the order of battles & the fleet #s of the enemy alliance are immaterial.

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Re: Player Number used for game play. Sat, 11 July 2009 15:13 Go to previous message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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Even better, setup your W/L sites where enemies cannot reach them, and protect your own planets so enemy fleets cannot saunter around at will. Twisted Evil


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