Hi all!

Time for another one...

My thanks to Tim Rooks (skoormit) for the basic game idea. He says he can't host a second round of "Hard Rocks" atm, but he doesn't mind me stealing the idea, which I've modified a little for "Dig It!".

Basically, this is a game for 'mineless' races.



Standard rules:

The usual cheat disclaimer applies.

Special Rules:

This is a game for ‚mineless’ races. Your mine settings have to be 5/15/5.

On the other hand, factoryless races are banned. Your factory settings may not be worse than 10/10/10. The middle number may not be raised, the other two may not be lowered. You are free to make the settings better.

Race restrictions:

AR and IT are banned.
CA has to leave 200 points unused in the race wizard, set to Defenses.
JoaT has to leave 100 points unused in the race wizard, set to Defenses.

Diplomatics:

Diplomatic contact between races is absolutely banned. No mail, no in-games. No coordination of any kind. No tech-trade. In short: Anything you can or would do with one of the Stars! AIs, you can do here. Nothing else. Please don’t tell me that you regularly send in-games to the AIs in your testbeds. And don’t even think of telling me that they answer...


Game setup:

Minimum of 8 players, maximum of 16.
Universe size will depend on the number of players, I’m aiming for 30 – 35 planets per player. The smallest setting will be Medium, Normal (for 8 players), the largest Large, Normal (for 16 players).

Player Positions: Distant
AccBBs checked
Galaxy Clumping checked
All others unchecked

Victory settings:

Player owns 50% of all planets

Or

Player exceeds second place by 100%

At least 100 years must pass before a winner is declared.

However: This setting will only turn on the public player scores. It is then up to the active players to decide by vote if they agree with the game engine and declare the player at rank #1 the winner.

Schedule:

Five days a week until at least 2420. Three days a week as soon as a player requests it after that time. This part of the setup is open to discussion by the players.



Please let me know if you’re interested and send a passworded (host will be playing) file to:

michael squiggle auwers littleroundthing de

Subject: Dig It!

First come, first served!


Regards,

Alter Ego

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I'm interested in playing a game but i've not played in 10 years and this sounds a little tricky, will have to have a play over the next few days and see if i can get it to work.

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Hi Amanda!

Welcome back to the fold...


You might want to have a look at the thread for "Hard Rocks" to give you an idea of some of the issues involved.

And running a couple of preliminary testbeds is very advisable. You'll quickly find that some races that seem to be OK are anything but. When you've found something suitable, you can let me know if you want to play. Still time enough for adding the bells and whistles after that.

Reserving a slot for you.

Regards,

AE

[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:22]

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Hi!
Since I've been in one such a game I'm intrigued, but not enough to apply just now.

May I ask why did you ban the AR? IMO in this game an AR for the first time gets slight advantage in minerals in the early and mid game. If you're concerned about AR's mineral fountain in late game, you can simply limit the number of remote robots AR can use over any colonized HW to ~20 robots. In best case that's 450 "mines" with the mineral output other race will get from their 100% HW.

BR, Iztok

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iztok wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 14:27

May I ask why did you ban the AR? IMO in this game an AR for the first time gets slight advantage in minerals in the early and mid game. ... BR, Iztok

I sure hope I don't have to add this quote to the same list as the one from "Primitive 1".

"Yes, HE 'may' be a little too strong in this game, however, I'm not going to change it. The player that has taken the HE is a novice." -Ptolemy

I think a few people know how that one turned out.

-Matt

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Well, as I don't want to end up in your list of Most Memorable Blunders, I'll stick to my guns: AR is banned in this game.


AE

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Hi Xardre!

The offer is gratefully accepted.


Regards,

Alter Ego

[Updated on: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:34]

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Hi!

Alter Ego wrote on Tue, 19 May 2009 22:13

But the main reason is that I like to see a variety of PRTs in my games.

I'm affraid you'll not see a real variety, because:
- using 3-immune HE would be stilly, because they'll not have red planets to mine remotely, and "superbreeder" designs will not have minerals to fuel their ultra-fast expansion.
- PP is too mineral-dependant to be usefull until late game. Though the second starting planet gives them slight advantage in minerals on the surface.
- even the SD's minelayers look quite expensive to produce early in this game.
- since this is no-communication game, the WM will not be able to trade for minelayers to protect his remotes. He'll get quite an advantage with his -25% weapons cost.

I'm affraid the variety you'll likely see in this no-communication game is JoaTs and ISs, and maybe a SS, a WM and a CA.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Fri, 29 May 2009 01:44]

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[Updated on: Wed, 20 May 2009 05:50]

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Hi!

One of the players has pointed out that he finds the penalties for CA and JoaT not very daunting in view of the points generated by the mine settings.

I'd like to hear opinions on this. I highly respect the theoretical competence of many of the posters in this forum, but in this case I would especially value comments by people who have at least tried to build a race with the given penalty - and maybe even taken it for a little test-run.


Regards,

AE

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Alter Ego wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 02:50

I'd like to hear opinions on this. AE

CA - Even with the 201 point penalty, you can build a pretty nice CA race. I whipped up a quick example to look at, and you can still build a killer design. 3.5 cheap techs, 1 in 9 hab (I run a 1 in 16 for a normal TT CA), 1000 15/10/10 yes 5/15/5. I could even afford 19% growth with some tweaking.

The big deal about CA is the explosive growth via TT and instaforming. You are not really limiting growth to much, and actually you are making the normal growth phase more conducive for the CA in this scenerio. Plus, the pop drop phase will most likely be extended in this game. If all you do treat the CA like a -f for the first years, the game will be over pretty quick.

I ran my test game to 2425, which is when I hit bio13 and TT15. This is also known as, the "everyone is now dead" bench mark. I only took 13 planets, and built 5 Privateers. I did next to no MM, so figure someone taking the time to do this right might shave a few years off.

So, why is this bad? because I jumped from 3 breeders in my area, to 20...Pop would ramp fast, tech would sky rocket, and you would be able to wipe out neighbors with a few high tech ships and lots of pop. By the time this aggressive expansion catches up to you (neighbors ganging up), you will have so many planets to draw mins from, it won't matter.

I probably should redo it without the 15 for fact eff, but I already know the result. heh.

IMO, the only way to nerf a CA *enough* is disallow TT with the 200 points unused at the very least. Probably want to make it leave 250 points unused also...as it will gain points back from not having to take TT.


-Matt

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Hi!

Alter Ego wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 09:50

One of the players has pointed out that he finds the penalties for CA and JoaT not very daunting in view of the points generated by the mine settings.

Good thinking! It looks like I can make a toned-down "standard" HG TT CA work here, even with 400 points negative.

Will do a testbed or two to see how it behaves in the -m environment, that puts a big brake on the colony drive.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:55]

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I was thinking of joining this for my first game
(besides open war that only made it 20 years and was canceled so i don't count that) but I just realized IT is banned.. What a bummer thats what i was going to play with.
EDIT: ok i just read you might host another game with IT allowed ill check it out in the future.
Good Luck guys.

[Updated on: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:36]

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Alter Ego wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 16:47

Hi Matt! Thanks for the reply. But I do have some questions. If I total the mineral costs for the colonisers and privateers you've built, I get a ball-park figure of 600 kT of Iron and 300 Kt of Germ. This is without having build any other ships - no additional scouts, no remote miners beyond those you might have started off with. This may work with a HW with average mineral concentrations. If they are below average... you might have a problem.

All the min concentrations started at the lowest, 30% I think. I also built scouts...I might have forgot to set the overage to defenses.

Quote:

If you have taken some of your planets to a normal hold-level for breeders, your pop will indeed go up at this point. And you may have earned the 19000 res you need for TT 15. But techs will only skyrocket after that if you continue to play the race as if it were -f

Well, yes, is that an issue? You won't have mins to build factories that soon any way, so why bother trying?

Quote:

and if you don't build any remote miners.

For that race I never would have. Why would I?

this would not be the first time I have experimented in mineral settings. I won a "normal" Huge packed once with 15/15/5 mineral settings, and never used remote miners. I'd get considerbly less mins in this game, but so would every one else.

Quote:

If you do take that route, where are the high-tech ships going to come from with which you want to take out your neighbours? You'll need minerals for them.

Yes, eventually I have to build mines. However, the point I was making is that the growth will be so much higher on a TT CA that the cost will be achievable, along with the tech.

Quote:

Some of the races I've tested were sending 100k of pop to settle planets at this stage - and putting up an orbital the year after colonising. I'm afraid just pop-dropping won't work in that case...

Right, but the base will be easy to shoot down. Then you pop drop. Doubtful anyone will have huge fleets.

Quote:

I think you underestimate the effects of the mineless

Probably, let me know how it goes.

-Matt

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[quote title=mlaub wrote on Fri, 22 May 2009 02:08]

Alter Ego wrote on Thu, 21 May 2009 16:47

Quote: and if you don't build any remote miners. For that race I never would have. Why would I? this would not be the first time I have experimented in mineral settings. I won a "normal" Huge packed once with 15/15/5 mineral settings, and never used remote miners. I'd get considerbly less mins in this game, but so would every one else.

Ooops.

Sorry, I was taking for granted that everybody would build remote miners. Of course, there are two other ways to get your hands on the necessary minerals.

I'll have to rethink what you wrote and see if it seems plausible under the supposition that you build planetary mines or use mineral alchemy or both.

But to tell you the truth, I very much doubt if the last sentence I've quoted is true - I think remote miners will deliver a significantly higher amount of mins. This is a gut feeling - I'll have to run a few tests to check it.

Regards,

AE

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[Updated on: Fri, 22 May 2009 04:23]

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Hi!

Alter Ego wrote on Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06

I think remote miners will deliver a significantly higher amount of mins. This is a gut feeling - I'll have to run a few tests to check it.

No need for that. From a resources-point-of-view just a simple math will do.

• A planetary mine costs 15 resources, and has 50% efficiency, so you need to invest 30 resources to get 1 unit of minerals.
  
• The (weak) Potato Bug has base costs (no miniaturization) 41i/0b/12g/123r and acts as 10 un-nerfed mines, so you need 12.3 resources to get 1 unit of minerals. Or 6.2 with Maxi robot, or 4.2 with Super, or 2.5 with Ultra.

OTOH:

• Potato Bug also cost 41 iron and 12 germ while planetary mines don't,
  
• but Potato Bug miniaturizes, while planetary mines don't, and
• you are not limited to 5 Potato Bugs per 10k pop.

The winner of this game will have remote miners. I know what I'm talking about. I've won such a low-minerals game vs. an opponent that had econ 3 times of mine, but I had remotes and Dreadnoughts.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Fri, 22 May 2009 04:00]

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