Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Defeating the factoryless race
| Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 29 January 2009 17:17  |
|
 johng316 |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002
Location: Indiana, USA | |
|
I've been around the Stars! community a long time, but I have been gone for about 5 years. Just before I left, the -f design was something new and racy. Jason Cawley used a -f IS to win in a previous iteration of Stone Age Slaughter, a game I hosted over 5 years ago.
I've noticed since returning that -f is all the rage. It is the new race design "fad" for Stars. But this is nothing new. Early in Stars history, the 4% HE was considered the pinnacle of unbeatable designs. After that, Scott Phelps published an article on how a 19% HG JOAT could stomp the 4% HE in a duel. A duel was done, and Scott was proven correct. After that, HG became the design status-quo. Presently, -f seems to be wearing the beauty crown. Many advantages, few disadvantages.
So, I thought it was time to write a basic article with some ideas on how to defeat the -f next door. I don't expect to know all on the subject, just want to start a sharing of ideas. I would encourage any and all ideas on the subject to be posted and discussed. Should be fun!
My ideas in the next post....
John
All Your Base Are Belong To Us.Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 29 January 2009 17:26  |
|
| johng316 |
| Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002
Location: Indiana, USA | |
|
Here are a few initial thoughts to get things going.
First, the -f has many advantages. Wide hab. Fast growth. Fast time to war.
Disadvantages: slow down in the capital ship phase. If territory growth stops, econ growth is greatly slowed and other races can catch up.
I will use these advantages against the -f, and try to halt expansion. How? Diplomacy is the main weapon.
While it's true that a -f can steamroll a neighbor quickly, can he steamroll 3 simultaneously?
A -f will almost certainly be an aggressor. Aggressors are fairly easy to isolate diplomatically. They are a threat, and a threat to ALL their neighbors. If unchallenged, they will expand and expand, and gain more power. You must persuade others to join against you in a containment fight. You must slow down (or halt) the expansion, and it's a coordinated effort. Fortunately, the sheer aggression of the -f makes this possible.
Secondly, wide hab means the -f is typically seeking the same planets as his neighbors. This makes it even easier to isolate the -f race diplomatically as a threat.
If there are 2 or more -f neighbors, they all have the same objective: Conquer neighbors quickly. Try to put the -f players in opposition. Paint the other as a primary threat. God help you if they join forces, but the fact that they share wide habs (most of the time) will help you to get them fighting each other. If you can do that, for a time their expansions may be blunted.
Bottom line: In order to defeat the -f, you MUST stop or slow the expansion until your own economy is competitive. If you can get into the 2440's without losing much, the -f may have spent most of his early game advantage, and your own advantages come into play. Use your neighbors, build a coalition, and try to get the -f players to fight each other.
You can't beat the -f through direct confrontation in the early game (unless you are SD or maybe -f yourself). If you are not, a coalition and diplomacy is a large part of the answer. Pull their teeth (expansion), and frustrate them at every turn. This requires teamwork for success.
All Your Base Are Belong To Us.Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | |
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 30 January 2009 00:54 |
|
| magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
|
Sure, diplo decides the game. Otherwise ARs would never win 
But diplo is different for each game. Any general advice can't therefore rely on diplomacy beyond the most general terms (ie "they probably won't be the diplomat of the century").
In skirmishing wars -f stomps any non-SD or IS, and of course, one of the most popular -fs *is* IS. The only way you're going to get better mobility than a -f is to play AR, which can't match them early anyway.
Dig in, yup. Gates are a must, to stop skirmishing raids that sap your factories and mines, and hence G stores. Stick up OFs or docks everywhere to avoid pop drops.
Confinement is another big one. Minefields everywhere can stunt a -f much worse than an HG, because -fs are so low-density.
Yeah. Restrict their planets, and hence make their low res/planet hurt more.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 31 January 2009 16:08 |
|
| Sully |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 39
Registered: January 2004 | |
|
The key to -f defeat is that he has a deadline. He MUST gain X% of realestate (more then his fair share) before the factorybuilders get dug in and the planets become harder to come by.
Mine Fields help
Taking out his freighters in mid-space can't hurt.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 January 2009 16:09] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 31 January 2009 20:18 |
|
| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
|
Hi!
| Quote: |
some ideas on how to defeat the -f next door
|
There are two distinct problems +f races have to solve when they face an aggressive -f next door.
1) Battle readines. Since -f doesn't need to build factories, and usually have 3+ tech fields cheap, they can get milestone warfighting techs significantly earlier than +f races. Being early in the game, the needed techs aren't very expensive, so +f player can plug that gap quite fast, and start building proper ships to defend himself. But by doing this, he starts the second, much severe problem:
2) Lost ramp-up time. The war with the -f will not end in 5 turns, so he could resume his development with a minimal delay. It will take lots of resources and minerals to stop -f's attack, and when it will finaly end, he will be at least a decade behind the player(s) that was not under attack, developing his planets and techs in peace. 10+ years of development means he'll face warships with just about every important component better than his ships can have. That makes him a tempting target to any smart and aggressive and battle-ready player, that kept an watchfull eye on that small war.
And the last outcome from that will be the -f will also lose, because it didn't conquer enough planets to remain competitive in the late-game tech era, where monsters prevail.
Moral of the story: pick your target VERY carefuly.
BR, Iztok
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sun, 01 February 2009 04:52 |
|
| Alter Ego |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany | |
|
Hi John,
sound advice. However, you will find that quite a few games now hosted on SAH are 'silent', i. e. they ban communication between races. Either between all races or between races not allied.
There are a number of reasons for this, some more valid than others. Anyway, these games are quite popular...
How does one defeat the evil factoryless monster if one cannot raise a general fuss?
Regards,
AE
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sun, 01 February 2009 11:44 |
|
| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
|
Hi!
| johng316 wrote on Sun, 01 February 2009 07:33 |
I agree completely with the problems you present. What I am trying to find are the solutions. 
|
A carefull reader will find the solution in my previous post. 
It is quite simple: the bigger the chance for the -f(s) in the game, the smaller the chance you can fool around with slow-starters, experimental designs and AR. Field a strong +f race and play it like you'll be under attack before turn 20 (such an approach usually requires sacrificing some capacity for more speed), so the -f doesen't have a reasonable chance to beat you in early twenties, when he's ready for the first war. If he still attacks, then after you stop/break one of his attacking fleets, simply send him the message that you'll not surrender, that he can't beat you, and if he continues this war he'll be destroyed after 25 turns by his other neighbour, that's developing his empire unhindered.
The main problem with this approach is, it assumes the -f plays to win the game, that he has long-term goals. If he's just having fun, he'll ignore your messages, and keep attacking. When his other mostly-developed neighbour attacks him with owerwhelming power, he'll simply drop, spoiling the game for you and most other players, because that other player will take his teritory almost for free. 
BR, Iztok
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | | |
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Tue, 03 February 2009 21:34 |
|
| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
|
I must respectfully disagree.
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 04 February 2009 06:09 |
| [email |
m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Tue, 03 February 2009 12:39] and they seem to thrive poorly in decent-sized playgrounds. 
|
That would not be a true statement. -f can do just fine in the larger universes. They do have some issues in the larger universes, but usually not until nubs are out, and nothing that can't be overcome with planning or MM.
One such issue is sheer size. You need to be ~3x a normal race, but this is a 2 edged sword. It is a impediment to ship building via fleet limit, but you get the flexibility of cheap infrastructure and truly sacrificial planets. Plus you get many more minerals.
|
This seems to raise an obvious point. How are you going to get that big? Sure, a -f 3x the size of a +f can compete. But they won't be that, because +f races don't expand much slower than a -f under near-ideal conditions, which "decent-sized playgrounds" are. Say 1.5, okay? Then the +f has 2x the -f's resources, and 2/3 of the minerals. Sounds better to me...
Basically, because there's more room, the +f races will get the time to develop that's usually denied them, thus denying the -f races their tech advantage.
| Quote: |
I would hazard a guess that your conclusion of poor -f performance in the larger universes is directly proportional to the players tolerance for MM. At least in the players that you have observed.
|
MM can't solve all the problems. Larger universes really don't like early-bloomer races. That's all there really is to it.
| Quote: |
I'd go so far to say that larger universes are actually easier for -f IS and IT, IMO.
-Matt
|
-f IS, I agree. Because they can overpop planets, a -f IS can actually get res/space competitive with +f races. Their overpop and orgies really come into their own in a long game like that.
IT, I don't. Sure, large uni advantages IT. It doesn't advantage -f IT relative to +f IT though.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Tue, 03 February 2009 23:31 |
|
| ArtL |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 5
Registered: February 2009 | |
|
Perhaps beating a factoryless race is "easier" than you are making it. Consider the question, "how do you beat a fast starter / blitzer?" I'll assume you pose this problem wanting to beat this foe single handedly and as such will ignoring the very valid, effective, but indirect method of diplomacy. That leaves you with two main strategies for beating a fast starter - either you need to be even faster or you need to be tough enough that you can hold him off (or scare him off) long enough that you can build up your own strength.
Now, faster may not really be an option especially if you assume almost any +f race could be converted to an even faster -f race. Sure, you might find a +f that is faster than a specific -f, but that just means your opponent didn't go as far as he could. Since you probably don't want the answer fight -f with a -f, let's consider the other option.
Here you are really looking at the balance of HG vs HP (or some hybrid). The smaller and denser the universe, the more speed will be critical. Only when things are a little more spread out can you start to sacrifice some speed for long term strength.
So, how to beat -f? "Simply" make sure you strike a better balance between short term survival and long term strength than your opponent. In very fast games, that simply may not allow you to be anything but -f. In longer games, you may be able to "trade up" to an HG+f and plan to beat back the -f in 50+ years. If you are in an epic game, you could build up a true HP and then walk all over him much later in the game.
Just a thought from a rusty, old player . . ..
Well, maybe not that old, but definitely rusty.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 06 February 2009 05:54 |
|
| Alter Ego |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany | |
|
Pssttt!
Don't even talk about JoaT. Let them think that it's a boring race. Too simple for strong players.
Just keep it a secret...
AE
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | |
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sun May 05 15:10:32 EDT 2024
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
