Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » New Player needs help
| New Player needs help |
Thu, 01 January 2009 11:34  |
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 Daffel |
 | Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2009 | |
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1. Against the KI i always playing a race like 1-4 hab, 12,8,13 3g fabs, 19% Popgrowth and all tech expansive except weapons. I never find enough Points for construction cheap or even normal.
But it seems, the most human player take constuction cheap.Why?
I always playing with RS, so the highest i need ist c 13.
2. My first attack fleets are always DD's with fm, colloidals and wolverine shield. The next Warships are BB's with weapon 16 Beamers, IS 10, Overthruster... But it needs a long time from this DD's to this BB's. What kind of Battelships i can build between this types? CC'S with IS 10? sounds stupid for me. CC's with Fm? And BB's with Jihads? They are not gateable - so i hate this ships, except playing IT.
3.Playing without NRSE do you wait for Prob 16 before building BB's?
4. What is the typical resarch schedule, after having the basics?
After energy 10, weap 10, prob 10, con 8, electric 10 and bio 7
i go always prob 12, con 13, weapon 16. But it seems me to late having my BB's doing that whay. And then? Weapon 26 without stop?
When do you research el 16, energy 16 ?
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Thu, 01 January 2009 12:21  |
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| iojho |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 280
Registered: October 2006
Location: EPBA | |
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My 
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1. Against the KI i always playing a race like 1-4 hab, 12,8,13 3g fabs, 19% Popgrowth and all tech expansive except weapons. I never find enough Points for construction cheap or even normal.
But it seems, the most human player take constuction cheap.Why?
I always playing with RS, so the highest i need ist c 13.
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IMO, the settings you described are typical for HG races and they are doing quite well. I think you could save some race wizard points setting factories cost to 9 resources instead of 8. A bit slower race but this let you spend RW points for taking construction normal. All in all, initially you generate resources based on population growth and not on factories.
I used to play with all techs expensive except weapons. Everyting went well untill medium stage of the game. Simply, it is hard to stop BBs using DDs or FFs. So nowadays I take construction at least normal. Also to get LFs sooner.
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2. My first attack fleets are always DD's with fm, colloidals and wolverine shield. The next Warships are BB's with weapon 16 Beamers, IS 10, Overthruster... But it needs a long time from this DD's to this BB's. What kind of Battelships i can build between this types? CC'S with IS 10? sounds stupid for me. CC's with Fm? And BB's with Jihads? They are not gateable - so i hate this ships, except playing IT.
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Usually, my first warships are DDs armed bazookas or sometimes even yokimora dependently on the situation.
For me the most important thing is to keep my ships gatable.
At early stages, my next design is DD armed jihads, which I can transfer via 100/250 gates. Later, once I have 300/500 gates I field CCs armed jihads or better missiles. Both are using FM engine.
I produce BBs having TG Drive or IS-10. (I always take NRSE)
"Every person speculates on creating a new need in another, so as to drive him to fresh sacrifice, to place him in a new dependence and to seduce him into a new mode of enjoyment and therefore economic ruin."
Karl Marx,1844Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Fri, 02 January 2009 04:59 |
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| magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Daffel wrote on Fri, 02 January 2009 03:34 |
1. Against the KI i always playing a race like 1-4 hab, 12,8,13 3g fabs, 19% Popgrowth and all tech expansive except weapons. I never find enough Points for construction cheap or even normal.
But it seems, the most human player take constuction cheap.Why?
I always playing with RS, so the highest i need ist c 13.
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- In English the abbreviation is AI, not KI.
- 12/8 factories are quite expensive for an HG. Try 11/9/15 or something like that. HG use factories for capacity, not ramp speed, and factory numbers are cheaper than efficiency (20/click up to 16 facts operated/10,000)
- Human players take construction cheap for two reasons:
1) to get CAs and then BBs at a reasonable time
2) to be able to research Nub tech in a few turns when Weapons research is maxed.
- Why do you say that RS = not need Nubians? RS hurts BBs because they have a dedicated armour slot, but helps Nubians because you generally don't add armour to a Nub anyway, and it frees up a slot because you only need 2 instead of 3 slots of Complete Phase Shields to get full shielding. So RS makes con 26 more attractive, not less.
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2. My first attack fleets are always DD's with fm, colloidals and wolverine shield. The next Warships are BB's with weapon 16 Beamers, IS 10, Overthruster... But it needs a long time from this DD's to this BB's. What kind of Battelships i can build between this types? CC'S with IS 10? sounds stupid for me. CC's with Fm? And BB's with Jihads? They are not gateable - so i hate this ships, except playing IT.
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- General engines for ships smaller than BBs are: the Fuel Miser, the Daddy Long Legs 7, the Radiating Hydro-Ram Scoop, and the Trans-Galactic Fuel Scoop. Obviously whether you've picked IFE or NRSE will affect these choices, as will your Propulsion tech cost. You're right that the Trans-galactic Drive and Interspace-10 are too expensive for ships smaller than BBs.
- CAs with Jihads are overgateable, as are BBs with Mk IV blasters. CAs with Colloidal Phasers are also a well-known design. Frigate hordes are the general currency before the CA era.
- Until missiles become available, there is no need for 2 1/4 move speed on a range 3 ship, as torp ships will always give you last move. 1 3/4 is a good speed for catching freighters.
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3.Playing without NRSE do you wait for Prob 16 before building BB's?
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Hell no. I'd go Prop 9, for the TGFS.
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4. What is the typical resarch schedule, after having the basics?
After energy 10, weap 10, prob 10, con 8, electric 10 and bio 7
i go always prob 12, con 13, weapon 16. But it seems me to late having my BB's doing that whay. And then? Weapon 26 without stop? When do you research el 16, energy 16 ?
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Elect 11 is good enough until Juggernauts and probably Doomsdays. Get En 16 when you need it, ie when you need temp terra 15, gorilla shields, and planetary shields. My general mid-game tech framework is:
En 10
Weap 16
Prop 9 or 11
Con 13
Elect 11
Bio 7
From there I'd go hard into weap, getting en 16 when needed, and getting Elect 16 or 19 after dooms. I'd go for Prop 16 (if ramscoop race) around the same time. After maxing Weap, max Con, for nubians, and then get En 23, Prop 23 (if NRSE), and Elec 19 if not already.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Fri, 02 January 2009 05:06 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Daffel wrote on Fri, 02 January 2009 05:04 |
1.But using TG Drive for BB's means no Killermovement (2 1/4 )
2. What is the best reserach schedule? Do you go weap 12 before prop/energy 10? And when do you resarch el 16 for better jamming?
And what ist the reason for resarching weap 24? I am always playing just Beam BB's. So i only need weap 22.
3. In a game against humans, which year i need this weapon 16 BB'S ?
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Weap 12 before Prop/En 10, yeah, for Jihad CAs, which only need Wolverine shields. Weap 24 for Armageddons, because Missile BBs >> Beam BBs. Less mobility, sure, but you need the missile arm for big battles. And even with beams, you need W26 for Anti-Matter Pulverisers.
I haven't played much, so I can't tell what year Jugg BBs.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Fri, 02 January 2009 08:47 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Yeah, new games aren't frequent, and bigger games are rarer than smaller. 8 players in medium is a tad longer than most people want to play. Make a thread here in the Bar about it, and see what turns up.
EDIT: I'm interested.
[Updated on: Fri, 02 January 2009 08:47] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sat, 03 January 2009 05:27 |
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| Daffel wrote on Fri, 02 January 2009 05:53 |
Ok. Thank you for all the tipps. But my biggest Problem is how can i join a game? I wanna play a normal Game ( no specific rules )in medium universe, 8 Players and no open score. In New Game Announcements i could not find a Game like this.
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I will post a vanilla game shortly to give yourself & other players that opportunity. A lot of experienced players are fond of scenario games so as to keep it fresh but there should probably be more games for those that want a standard game.
The game will still have handicaps for CA & JOAT races but will contain no special rules.
Check New Games in the next day or so.
BTW though there are a number of things that most players are agreed upon there are many ways to skin a cat. In other words, there is no definitive correct way to go about research or ship design. For example, I will usually do not put jammers on my Nubs because I believe that it's better to use chaff & use the extra slot for beam deflectors, shields, weapons, cloaks, etc. but many players would always mount jammers.
Also, fashion has changed over time. Examples:
1. Several years ago you were asking to be killed early if you were SS but CAs were considered OK. These days, if you are CA you will often be attacked early (unless you ally if your would-be attacker) but an SS is more tolerated than before.
2. Early strategy papers suggested that only a WM should have RS but these days most experienced players nearly always take it.
| Daffel wrote on Thu, 01 January 2009 13:04 |
1.But using TG Drive for BB's means no Killermovement (2 1/4 )
2. What is the best reserach schedule? Do you go weap 12 before prop/energy 10? And when do you resarch el 16 for better jamming?
And what ist the reason for resarching weap 24? I am always playing just Beam BB's. So i only need weap 22.
3. In a game against humans, which year i need this weapon 16 BB'S ?
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1. Generally speaking speed is a good thing but it need not be your overriding concern. The most important thing is "cost per kill" - I sometimes deliberately design a ship for slowness or, should I say, the "correct" speed. This is particularly so with beam ships where your enemy & you have different beam lengths - if you have R2 & your enemy has R3 you need to ensure that the 2 ships meet in the same battle round & if they do then your R2 beams are both cheaper &, since they have higher initiative, shoot first. If you have R3 & your enemy has R2 then your ships should not be slower than his but they also need not be faster - you can then shoot & back up repeatedly. In both cases low weight is critical since moving last is integral to both strategies & that might encourage you not to take NRSE since Ramscoops are lighter than comparable standard engines except for the TS-10.
2. It depends entirely upon your race design & game strategy except that you need to ensure you don't fall too far behind in weapons & construction. Most games also involve alliances & that will also shape your research tree. If you are confident that you will have allies then you could even risk taking Con expensive instead of something else, like Energy or Prop (if you don't take NRSE). Finally, some PRTs are more suited to one tech strategy than others. An AR will definitely need Energy cheap, An SD might think about Bio cheap with TT, etc.
3. You should aim for BBs with Bear shields or better & Juggs/Heavy Blasters by 2450 or soon afterwards. If our opponent has ISB I suggest that you don't ignore Elec too much - A Space Dock is defenseless v a BB with missiles & 7 computers if both players have the same computer capabilit since the BB ALWAYS shoots first. If you have SBCs then your opponent must build more advanced bases, build ships and get them where needed or research Elec 19 for Nexus to defend against such a BB.
One more important tip: ensure that your ships have suitable attractiveness. For example, you don't want to find that your enemy missiles are more attrac
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sat, 03 January 2009 06:27 |
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| Daffel |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2009 | |
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In " Möchte mitspielen. Wie gehts? " ( that's german ) we talking about start a new game too. But know we are talking english there. So maybe take a look.
I would like one specific rule: You have to declare war two years before you start war.
And how i can get get some tipps for my specific race? I cant post this race her, because i dont want give my further enymys
the exact design.
I don't understand what you wrote about BB's. I tested now some types. And if all other the same, the ships with more speed was the clear winner. Even they had more weight. Example:I tested TGD against prop 9 ramscop. Both with bearshield's, no armour, four sappers ( wp 15) and the rest beamer (wp 16 ) and six capacitors. TGD Ships wins. Changing the beamweapons to R2 ( wp 14 ) by the ramscoop BB's make the disaster for they only much bigger. Even they had the higher initiative and was lighter. So it should always the best to have R3 Beamers and the highest speed.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 January 2009 09:57] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sat, 03 January 2009 13:17 |
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| Daffel |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2009 | |
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I know that BB's with Ramscoops are cheaper. But i tested how the performe in Battle. Last time i tested 10 BB's against 10 BB's. My mistake was that i only tested one time. Now I tested three times 10 BB'S against 10 BB's. And i'm really surprised.Random seem's to be a important factor in battles.
I tested BB's with full bearshields, no armor, overthruster,6 capacitors and 4 sappers and rest R3 beamweapons( weap 16 ) with IS 10 against the same type with prop 12 ramscoop. Sometimes the IS 10 wins , sometimes the Ramscoop BB's. Then i changed the IS 10 BB's to R2 beamweapons ( weap 14 ) and it was the same. Sometimes the IS 10 wins, sometimes the other one. I changed the Ramscoop BB's to the R2 beamweapon and it was the same again.
ETC!!!
I could not see any difference in Succes beetween all this types. Sometimes one group wins sometimes the other one.
All Battles was decided by RANDOM.
So now i think it's better to build the cheapest version (Ramscoop + R2 weapons ) because you can built more of them.
Is Random really the most important factor in Battles beetwen BB's groups, if they are equal in number and tech?
[Updated on: Sat, 03 January 2009 16:04] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sat, 03 January 2009 18:20 |
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| Daffel wrote on Sat, 03 January 2009 06:27 |
In " Möchte mitspielen. Wie gehts? " ( that's german ) we talking about start a new game too. But know we are talking english there. So maybe take a look.
I would like one specific rule: You have to declare war two years before you start war.
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I actually learnt German in school but it's pretty much gone now except for the odd word or phrase (like Wie gehts). BTW you're going well in English so don't feel shy about using it - after all, language need not be precise or formal as long as the meaning is clear. At least German & English have similar sentence structures.
I will PM craebild & we'll decide who posts the game. I don't really care since I would merely be a non-playing host but it would be best to avoid competing for players in two similar games.
Your special rule request is OK by me. The rule would say "all races start with a NAP with all other races. The NAPs include a 2 year exit clause." Remember that diplomacy is very important so you should seek at least one long-term ally anyway. The importance of diplomacy is often underestimated by beginners.
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And how i can get get some tipps for my specific race? I cant post this race her, because i dont want give my further enymys the exact design.
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Either I can advise you (& anyone else joining the game) or I will seek a third party to do that.
In your first game you should use an economically strong PRT such as CA, JOAT, IS, SD or IT (ITs are not inherently that strong but can expand quickly through their gates to make up for it). Avoid AR, HE, PP, SS & WM - some of these, particularly the last two, are often attractive to beginners but they are actually quite difficult to play well.
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I don't understand what you wrote about BB's. I tested now some types. And if all other the same, the ships with more speed was the clear winner. Even they had more weight. Example:I tested TGD against prop 9 ramscop. Both with bearshield's, no armour, four sappers ( wp 15) and the rest beamer (wp 16 ) and six capacitors. TGD Ships wins. Changing the beamweapons to R2 ( wp 14 ) by the ramscoop BB's make the disaster for they only much bigger. Even they had the higher initiative and was lighter. So it should always the best to have R3 Beamers and the highest speed.
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I have seen your later post about this & will answer it there.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sat, 03 January 2009 19:24 |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 03 January 2009 10:41 |
However, for other things you might not need that, e.g. you have a range 3 ship vs. their range 3 ship. Who cares what speed it is? They'll come in range of each other at the same time.
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Absolutely! Why increase your ship cost & weght if you can use FM or Radram v your enemy's expensive IS-10 beam ship. Of course, that decision is more complicated if the same ship will be used to attack bases &/or your enemy is using missile ships as well - in those cases BS=1.75 or better is usually (but not always) needed + an appropriate battle plan, chaff, your own missile ships, etc. It can become a counter-design war quite easily.
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Especially for battlecruisers and smaller TGD and IS-10 are too expensive - though a ramscoop ship may have to have more thrusters and hence less shields, capacitance etc, it will still generally win because you can build 30% more of them.
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Actually, TGD & TGFS provide exactly the same battle speed, as do the IS-10 v TGSS. In the latter case TGSS needs one extra level of Prop (Prop12) but you'll want that anyway for overthrusters. Further up the Prop tree the TGMS (Prop16) is the fastest engine of all until Prop23 when the TS-10 becomes available.
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@Alex: No TT for CA, no NAS for JoaT I presume? The no NAS restriction seems a little harsh, after all, even with it, they still struggle in economy against ITs and HEs.
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CA = no TT + 150 RW penalty set to defenses. Remember that not taking TT provides most of those points & you still get free terraforming.
JOAT = no NAS + 50 RW penalty set to defences. Taking NAS increases your available RW points.
I disagree with your assessment that IT & HE are stronger than JOAT - in fact, in my experience, JOAT is by far the 2nd strongest PRT after CA. ITs are certainly a very difficult customer due to their ability to gate loaded freighters & pop up instantaneously at any gate, but economically they can't compete unless they grab a much bigger patch of the turf. As for HE, I think that some players underestimate them but a 3i needs to survive until the 2nd century before they can become a monster & CCMaster's famous 15% -f HE is possibly the biggest monster of them all but only until mid-game so that race must become completely dominant by then otherwise it will probably fade.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sat, 03 January 2009 21:04 |
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| Daffel wrote on Sat, 03 January 2009 13:17 |
I know that BB's with Ramscoops are cheaper. But i tested how the performe in Battle. Last time i tested 10 BB's against 10 BB's. My mistake was that i only tested one time. Now I tested three times 10 BB'S against 10 BB's. And i'm really surprised.Random seem's to be a important factor in battles.
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It is random only if the ship hull + weapon gives the same initiative - eg. BB+MkIV = initiative 17 and BB+HB+2xcomp = initiative 17 as well so each has 50% chance of firing first.
The chances of moving last is not random but the heavier ship still has a chance of moving last if the heavier ship is < weight+15% & the lighter ship is > weight-15%. The closer the weight is, the greater that chance is. The formula is:
((A-B)/C*(A-B)/D)*0.5 where:
A=weight of lighter ship*1.15
B=weight of heavier ship*0.85
C=weight of lighter ship*0.30
D=weight of heavier ship*0.30
I can send you a spreadsheet for using this calculation. If anyone wants it then email me at mcdonaldjk at bigpond dot com.
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I tested BB's with full bearshields, no armor, overthruster,6 capacitors and 4 sappers and rest R3 beamweapons( weap 16 ) with IS 10 against the same type with prop 12 ramscoop. Sometimes the IS 10 wins , sometimes the Ramscoop BB's. Then i changed the IS 10 BB's to R2 beamweapons ( weap 14 ) and it was the same. Sometimes the IS 10 wins, sometimes the other one. I changed the Ramscoop BB's to the R2 beamweapon and it was the same again.
ETC!!!
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There were two different factors at work:
1. Both BB with HB: It was indeed random since they met in the same battle round & had the same initiative.
2. R2 BB v R3 HB: The weight of the Ramscoop was lighter so the chances of moving last was better than 50% (349kt v 377kt so chances were 72.3%) - the one that moved last won the battle.
Now try the R3 IS-10 v a R2 FM: weight is now 301kt (& gateable without damage/losses) v 377kt & the chances become 96.77%. Cheap & nasty!
Notes:
1. The engine used had no bearing except for the weight difference.
2. If you mix R2 & R3 (eg. MkIV & sappers) ship behaviour will vary with your battle plan. I personally avoid it.
3. Chances of moving last are round by round. Well you didn't expect it to be that easy did you?
I use a spreadsheet to calculate "cost per kill" where I plug in the actual ship cost, chances of moving last & the difference with or without specialist sapper ships. I recall that, in Babylon5 v2, I used a BB with FM & MkIVs v a BB with IS-10 & HB - I needed 17 of my BBs to kill 50 of his in about 88% of cases + my ships were much cheaper & easily gated.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sun, 04 January 2009 01:04 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Daffel wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 05:17 |
I know that BB's with Ramscoops are cheaper. But i tested how the performe in Battle. Last time i tested 10 BB's against 10 BB's. My mistake was that i only tested one time. Now I tested three times 10 BB'S against 10 BB's. And i'm really surprised.Random seem's to be a important factor in battles.
I tested BB's with full bearshields, no armor, overthruster,6 capacitors and 4 sappers and rest R3 beamweapons( weap 16 ) with IS 10 against the same type with prop 12 ramscoop. Sometimes the IS 10 wins , sometimes the Ramscoop BB's. Then i changed the IS 10 BB's to R2 beamweapons ( weap 14 ) and it was the same. Sometimes the IS 10 wins, sometimes the other one. I changed the Ramscoop BB's to the R2 beamweapon and it was the same again.
ETC!!!
I could not see any difference in Succes beetween all this types. Sometimes one group wins sometimes the other one.
All Battles was decided by RANDOM.
So now i think it's better to build the cheapest version (Ramscoop + R2 weapons ) because you can built more of them.
Is Random really the most important factor in Battles beetwen BB's groups, if they are equal in number and tech?
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If they're equal in number and parts, then yes, it's random. In most cases where ranges only differ by one, speed is not an important factor so much as which moves last and hence chooses the range. Last move is decided by ship weight: the lighter ships are more agile and will hence get last move. The IS-10 and TGD are the heaviest engines in existence, and cost a ####load as well.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sun, 04 January 2009 01:41 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| AlexTheGreat wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 11:24 |
| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 03 January 2009 10:41 |
However, for other things you might not need that, e.g. you have a range 3 ship vs. their range 3 ship. Who cares what speed it is? They'll come in range of each other at the same time.
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Absolutely! Why increase your ship cost & weght if you can use FM or Radram v your enemy's expensive IS-10 beam ship. Of course, that decision is more complicated if the same ship will be used to attack bases &/or your enemy is using missile ships as well - in those cases BS=1.75 or better is usually (but not always) needed + an appropriate battle plan, chaff, your own missile ships, etc. It can become a counter-design war quite easily.
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Exactly.
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Especially for battlecruisers and smaller TGD and IS-10 are too expensive - though a ramscoop ship may have to have more thrusters and hence less shields, capacitance etc, it will still generally win because you can build 30% more of them.
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Actually, TGD & TGFS provide exactly the same battle speed, as do the IS-10 v TGSS. In the latter case TGSS needs one extra level of Prop (Prop12) but you'll want that anyway for overthrusters. Further up the Prop tree the TGMS (Prop16) is the fastest engine of all until Prop23 when the TS-10 becomes available.
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Not true. The TGFS is a warp 8 engine, the TGD and TGSS are warp 9, and the IS-10 is warp 10. Weight does offset some of that, but not enough to make them the same speed. Take cruisers. Pretty much all cruisers with a few maneuvering jets will hit 140 kT weight and lose 1/4 movement. But even with IS-10 engines they're highly unlikely to hit 280 kT and lose another 1/4. So the speed advantage of the normal engines remains. The exception is the TGMS, with which you can build a cruiser with just under 140 kT weight, and hence get faster than an IS-10 cruiser. Battleships can be similar or different, depending on whether you armour them. All BBs will hit 280 kT and lose the first 1/4 of movement - this is unavoidable. Most beam BBs will be under 560 kT even with IS-10 engines, but I guess if you put Neutronium on them the engine choice could make a difference, making ramscoops the same speed as normal engines (and more agile, as usual). Missile BBs will always break the 280 and 560 cutoffs, but whether they go over the 840 kT (for 12 or 16 missiles, and unarmored), or 1120 kT (for fully armed and armored turtleboats) could depend on engine, I guess. But mostly, the normal engines are faster, but less agile.
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@Alex: No TT for CA, no NAS for JoaT I presume? The no NAS restriction seems a little harsh, after all, even with it, they still struggle in economy against ITs and HEs.
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CA = no TT + 150 RW penalty set to defenses. Remember that not taking TT provides most of those points & you still get free terraforming.
JOAT = no NAS + 50 RW penalty set to defences. Taking NAS increases your available RW points.
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No issues with the CA penalties, but with those restrictions on JoaT any IT or IS will have them for lunch.
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I disagree with your assessment that IT & HE are stronger than JOAT - in fact, in my experience, JOAT is by far the 2nd strongest PRT after CA. ITs are certainly a very difficult customer due to their ability to gate loaded freighters & pop up instantaneously at any gate, but economically they can't compete unless they grab a much bigger patch of the turf. As for HE, I think that some players underestimate them but a 3i needs to survive until the 2nd century before they can become a monster & CCMaster's famous 15% -f HE is possibly the biggest monster of them all but only until mid-game so that race must become completely dominant by then otherwise it will probably fade.
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1. I didn't say that IT and HE are stronger than JoaT. I said that JoaT isn't much more economically powerful than IT or HE, and economy is basically all they have, so giving them a 150 point penalty would cripple them.
2. Correct. ITs can't compete planet for planet with a JoaT. However, ITs can gro
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sun, 04 January 2009 04:52 |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 01:41 |
| AlexTheGreat wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 11:24 |
Actually, TGD & TGFS provide exactly the same battle speed, as do the IS-10 v TGSS. In the latter case TGSS needs one extra level of Prop (Prop12) but you'll want that anyway for overthrusters. Further up the Prop tree the TGMS (Prop16) is the fastest engine of all until Prop23 when the TS-10 becomes available.
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Not true. The TGFS is a warp 8 engine, the TGD and TGSS are warp 9, and the IS-10 is warp 10. Weight does offset some of that, but not enough to make them the same speed. Take cruisers. Pretty much all cruisers with a few maneuvering jets will hit 140 kT weight and lose 1/4 movement. But even with IS-10 engines they're highly unlikely to hit 280 kT and lose another 1/4. So the speed advantage of the normal engines remains. The exception is the TGMS, with which you can build a cruiser with just under 140 kT weight, and hence get faster than an IS-10 cruiser. Battleships can be similar or different, depending on whether you armour them. All BBs will hit 280 kT and lose the first 1/4 of movement - this is unavoidable. Most beam BBs will be under 560 kT even with IS-10 engines, but I guess if you put Neutronium on them the engine choice could make a difference, making ramscoops the same speed as normal engines (and more agile, as usual). Missile BBs will always break the 280 and 560 cutoffs, but whether they go over the 840 kT (for 12 or 16 missiles, and unarmored), or 1120 kT (for fully armed and armored turtleboats) could depend on engine, I guess. But mostly, the normal engines are faster, but less agile.
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You're quite right Magic9. Memory was playing tricks - the Ramscoops that I claimed to have the same BS as the standard engines I compared them to are actually .25 slower.
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1. I didn't say that IT and HE are stronger than JoaT. I said that JoaT isn't much more economically powerful than IT or HE, and economy is basically all they have, so giving them a 150 point penalty would cripple them.
2. Correct. ITs can't compete planet for planet with a JoaT. However, ITs can grow their pop quickly due to 1-turn transit time. Hence an IT can get more planets than a JoaT, enough to offset the 20% planet size thing.
3. While the IT trait is expensive, this is offset by:
- Don't need IFE due to starting prop, can even take CE.
- Don't need ISB due to gating advantages.
- Can get away with ridiculously narrow hab because of gating reducing transit time.
- Can get away with OBRM more easily than most due to gating minerals
- Can get away with NAS easier than most due to gatescanning.
All in all, a JoaT has a very small point advantage over an IT.
4. 6% 3i HEs aren't slow. They can easily break 25k by 2450 even with good LRTs and 3.5 cheap tech.
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1. Economy & their fast tech start is generally all they need but see below about a reduced JOAT penalty.
2. In most games either borders are agreed or the races fight over it. The former is most common & the border is generally about half way between the 2 HW2. If the latter then the JOAT & IT should be a close match with the better starting shields, better starting weapons & penscanning possibly making the difference but both races will most likely finish badly. There's no way my JOAT would cede space to my neighbouring IT.
3. NEVER CE but most of the rest you talk about is true. You can get away with them. That doesn't mean that you are not disadvantaged by doing so though - it just hurts less compared to most PRTs. BTW I pretty much always take OBRM except when I play AR.
4. A 6% 3i HE can get 25k in a testbed but I haven't seen one do it in a game - usually because they can't get the planets needed. An unhandicapped JOAT should get 40k+ by 2450 & one with no NAS about 5-10k less because of the lower available RW points. Then there's the question of "what then?" - the JOAT is still early on their hyperbolic resource curve & will probably break 100k by 2480. However, the 3i HE is more competitive than I origi
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sun, 04 January 2009 07:59 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| AlexTheGreat wrote on Sun, 04 January 2009 20:52 |
1. Economy & their fast tech start is generally all they need but see below about a reduced JOAT penalty.
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Agreed. I'm not saying JoaTs aren't competitive, I'm just saying that in a real game they aren't miles ahead of the pack.
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2. In most games either borders are agreed or the races fight over it. The former is most common & the border is generally about half way between the 2 HW2. If the latter then the JOAT & IT should be a close match with the better starting shields, better starting weapons & penscanning possibly making the difference but both races will most likely finish badly. There's no way my JOAT would cede space to my neighbouring IT.
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But what if the IT intersettles with you and a half dozen others? They can cover more space more easily than a JoaT, and most are happy to have an IT intersettle as long as they get to use the ubergates.
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3. NEVER CE but most of the rest you talk about is true. You can get away with them. That doesn't mean that you are not disadvantaged by doing so though - it just hurts less compared to most PRTs. BTW I pretty much always take OBRM except when I play AR.
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CE has two advantages:
1. You start with radrams.
2. Insane amount of points.
Most do take OBRM. This then means that an IT has better mineral distribution than anyone bar possibly PP.
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4. A 6% 3i HE can get 25k in a testbed but I haven't seen one do it in a game - usually because they can't get the planets needed. An unhandicapped JOAT should get 40k+ by 2450 & one with no NAS about 5-10k less because of the lower available RW points. Then there's the question of "what then?" - the JOAT is still early on their hyperbolic resource curve & will probably break 100k by 2480. However, the 3i HE is more competitive than I originally suggested; for some reason my brain was thinking about 3i ARs which start fast & fade just as quickly until the 2nd century when they stage a comeback.
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Space? They need less space, not more. The average planet hab including all reds is probably going to be worse than 50% for a non-immune or one-immune two-narrow race. And on top of that a 6% 3i HE can afford full hybrid factory/mine settings.
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You have convinced me that maybe the no NAS is penalty enough for a JOAT. Maybe ITs should be penalised too 
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Yeah. If I was hosting I'd say:
50 pt penalty for IT
No NAS for JoaT
100 pt penalty for CA and no TT.
Or something like that.
EDIT: The standard handicaps are:
AR: 50
SS/PP: 100
WM/HE: 125
SD/IS: 150
IT/JoaT: 175
CA: 200
So if you wanted reasonably fair handicaps for a beginner/intermediate game, 50 for IT and JoaT and 100/no TT for CA would seem fair, as SD and IS are both hard to use to their full potential, hence 25pt handicap can be reduced to 0, and CA is easier than most, hence give it a bigger handicap.
[Updated on: Sun, 04 January 2009 08:07] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Sun, 04 January 2009 19:42 |
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| Daffel wrote on Sat, 03 January 2009 12:27 |
And how i can get get some tipps for my specific race? I cant post this race her, because i dont want give my further enymys
the exact design.
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* Stars! - Abbreviations List: English-to-German, translated by Andreas Nieke
* some helpful links about race design in Stars!
Fighting the AIs is boring.
Welcome to Stars!
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2. My first attack fleets are always DD's with fm, colloidals and wolverine shield. The next Warships are BB's with weapon 16 Beamers, IS 10, Overthruster... But it needs a long time from this DD's to this BB's. What kind of Battelships i can build between this types? CC'S with IS 10? sounds stupid for me. CC's with Fm? And BB's with Jihads? They are not gateable - so i hate this ships, except playing IT.
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The answere is as simple as it is difficult:
you build whatever is suitable and best to beat your opponents. If it is possible to achive this in year 2425 with simple bazooka-frigates or destroyers: fine. Mostly this will only do against your 1st enemy, though, perhaps cruisers will still do the job against your 2nd enemy... and then...
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Mon, 05 January 2009 07:53 |
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| Daffel |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2009 | |
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In this case it's ok. But i don't want be in the situation that i can't allly with an SS. Because i'm to afraid of backstab.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 January 2009 02:11] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Mon, 05 January 2009 22:25 |
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| Daffel wrote on Mon, 05 January 2009 13:11 |
Altruist: Thank you for the links. The Abbrevations List will be realy help for me. You see my english is not the best so it would be fine for me, if i could ask you something about stars in german. Could i send you PM?
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Sure. Or email.
If you want to I can offer you some comments on your race design, just send it in. But don't ask me about games in large or huge universes, I never play in those.
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And because i'm maybe the only beginner in this game - would it be possible for an expert to watch the game and save me for big mistakes?
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Don't be so shy. There is no more horrible thing than an expert looking over your shoulder and confusing you with silly talk.
Seriously... learning the game the hard way is also the most fun way.
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| Re: New Player needs help |
Wed, 07 January 2009 03:40 |
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| Daffel |
| Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 16
Registered: January 2009 | |
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Altruist: Maybe there is something wrong with my Message Reader. Did you receive my PM?
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