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[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 05:27]

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Adacore wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 18:55

... factoryless races cannot put together an expensive battleship in one turn at any of their planets ...

IS -f

Actually, I find if I Q up a few BBs then that the first one may take 2 turns, but after that the next 5 or 6 may be 1 a turn (eg: planet has 700 res, ship costs 850 res). Doing that can bugger up balancing research though.

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... hard to assemble the slow trickle of capital ships produced across the empire into a single, powerful fleet.

IT -f

But most Beamer BBs can be consolidated pretty quickly with minimal losses - I'm usually happy to wear the losses.

The other thing I like about -f is mineral balancing. Generally so easy compared to HG and HP. Oh, and my ships can be 'germ heavy'.

I also like taking -f planets around mid game. For some reason I find -f players stockpile mins instead of using them. Damned if I know why. Building too many mines I guess.

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Very good point on the mineral balancing and germ use. Suddenly you can fill your ships with computers galore at far less effective cost as -f

I think stockpiling minerals as -f happens for a few reasons - firstly they tend to have lots of mines (since they're just building mines, not factories), secondly the relatively low ratio of resources to planets means the maximum rate they can spend minerals from a given planet is much lower than a race with factories, and finally (not completely -f specific) it's always a nice safety net to have stockpiles of minerals if you don't need a huge fleet right away. I'd tend to think that if someone captures these minerals that's more the fault of the -f not moving them to safer 'rear-area storage depots' than an issue with the -f having them at all.

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Soobie wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 05:57

I also like taking -f planets around mid game. For some reason I find -f players stockpile mins instead of using them. Damned if I know why. Building too many mines I guess.

Ha ha why stockpile resources when you can shove them through a mass driver and raze your opponents' planets to the ground?

That's what I've always loved about mass drivers - not only can you send massive amounts of resources from one planet to another at high speed without the need for ships, but you can also use them as a giant planetary cannon for shooting other planets out of the sky (so to speak). That's why I like PP races =P

Anyway, back to the topic under discussion - what sort of tactics should a -f race use at different stages of the game then? I would expect that if you have the advantage at the beginning, you should try to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible.

If you haven't managed to eradicate your enemies early on though, what tactics would you use later on in the game? I've just had a wicked idea that I need to testbed...

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[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 06:38]

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[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 06:57]

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[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 08:09]

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Adacore wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 05:55

It's not specifically touted as a '-f strategy' article, but if you've not read it already, you should check out Jason Cawley's Operational Stars by Example article, a revised version of which was included in the official strategy guide - http://www.anrokima.de/Strategie_Handbuch/ssg/ssg12.htm It's a good example-driven explanation of why and how -f races can compete in the mid-late game.

The guide itself is fine. However, neither does it, or anything said here really clearly define the true power of a -f. I think that any new player interested in creating and running a -f for the first time really needs to understand *how* they can be most effective. I hardly ever see that part discussed. I apologize if I missed someone else's explanation and this is just duplication, or this is truly so obvious to everyone, that no one stated it.

Losing the factories gives you:

1. A very wide hab
2. A very high growth (19% is fine, and I have used 18% with an IS)
3. Allows 3.5 cheap techs easily, if you want them.

You still need one other thing to make this a runaway train.

Required Secret ingredient - Ultra Aggression

This is the combo that makes the -f so powerful in the right hands. The fact that from the start you can have a 1 in 2 hab, or a 1 in 4 with an immunity (arguable the best choice), along with a 19% growth. With aggressive expansion, your population should far out strip your neighbors, by simply having more and better breeder planets. The other stuff talked about is the nuts and bolts of war, but the true power is the early explosive growth, and the effect that has on your targets....errr, I mean neighbors!

Not only will you have more pop in the early years, but you should have the best tech, too. This means that for the first part of the game, your colonies are near untouchable. Or, if someone does manage to destroy your much better tech spacedock, and popdrop you, it has hurt him *far more* than it has hurt you. In fact, as a -f, I like seeing my neighbors build fleets of destroyers and cruisers...

So, essentially, the -f controls space and planets by explosive expansion that is very difficult to counter early with a +f race. This should stunt the growth of your neighbors, or at least some. Further, by stunting the growth of its neighbors (by virture of taking part of *their* share of the planets!), or forcing them to fight early, they effectively create a power and tech difference, which creates its own immediate opportunities (I like to *effectively* take out my fist victim in the 2420's). Picking off the nearest, weakest, most "profitable" neighbors, creates the domino effect from hell. By the time we get to all these strategies that Cawley talks about, the game should be very one sided, in favor of the -f. If for no other reason, minerals would be key here.

Remember, you have given up factories for better tech, growth, but mainly hab. However, you did not give much up in mines. Now that you are hitting the mid to late game, you hopefully have 2x the planets of your nearest competitor. This means you have *way* more minerals. It's time to hang out the sign to all your neighbors. It reads "The End is Near!".

The only game where I played a -f and had difficulty in the late game, was a Huge/Packed (many issues with a -f in a huge). In that large of universe it is actually difficult to *effectively* eliminate everyone before Y2500. However, there was no doubt about the outcome of the game. How do you fight an opponent that doesn't care about planetary losses, and his mineral supply is still growing after 25 turns of endgame ship building? An AR, maybe, if there are any left, but that race is a primary target.

As a disclaimer, I will point out that anyone who is very good, plays a specific designed HG, can truly screw with a -f enough to set it off its game, possibly even beat it, if the HG got a lucky hab draw. As you can run an HG in full -f mode if needed. And, of course, running into another -f truly sucks.

-

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joseph wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 02:59

Matt - you missed explicitly stating that you should have ISB (yes I know some -f dont have it but it is the killer LRT for -f)

I mentioned spacedocks in one sentence, so it was on my mind

It is nice, but like you say, not 100% necessary. I would make this more dependant on universe size/Race more than anything else. Medium or smaller is almost a given to use ISB.

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Also speaking as someone who has lost a number of games with -f your biggest enemies are complacency, distance and diplomacy. Complacency - you are placing 1st or 2nd you spend a few turns to many getting nice to have tech and sufficent minelayers and ...forget to be attacking someone.

Yep, if you tend to complacency, you should play a different style race. I assume that any -f I run into does not want any game long friends, shouldn't receive any of my tech, and will attack me as soon as there is an opening. Any quarter shown to a -f will come back to bite you 9 times out of 10.

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Distance - the further away your neighbours are the harder it is to damage their growth and take their planet share.

Well, your expansion and tech just needs to ramp up that much faster. One of my earliest colonies in the huge was over 300ly from my HW to a near perfect breeder on the edge of another players "space". Imagine his surprise when I started moving into "his" territory! Did I stunt his growth? yep.

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Diplomacy - everyone you make a NAP with limits your boarders of expansion (note ally with players the other side of your neighbours and crush them between you). I once managed due to stupid diplomacy to surround myself with allies (would have been great if I was a HP).

Exactly.

-Matt

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[Updated on: Thu, 29 January 2009 15:30]

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