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[Updated on: Mon, 02 June 2008 01:42]

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[Updated on: Mon, 02 June 2008 02:32]

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[Updated on: Mon, 02 June 2008 03:28]

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Adacore wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 17:22

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 02:30 But it's on the other hand easier to pop-drop a planet than to blow up an AR starbase, in the very early game (to 2415 or so), as the latter can be armed very easily, and defenses are hard to make effective early. Not really - a -f race can pretty easily put up the exact same starbase as an AR at any given planet, the difference being that once the starbase is gone the enemy still has to bomb or invade the planet. Sure, the AR get a (completely undefended) starbase from year 1 while -f don't, but by year 2 or 3 the -f can have exactly the same base up - the only difference is the cost of an empty orbital fort hull, which isn't exactly huge.

Crap. I totally forget about that, why was I stupid enough to forget that...

Adacore wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 17:22

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 02:30 Not true at all. A -f race (non-AR) has to rebuild mines (3300 resources), defs (500 of each min + 1500 resources) and possibly terraforming, if against CA and not CA oneself (500 res+). Getting a DS back up is easy, due to the fact that you just dump 500k, build a dock, dump 2m more, build DS. Takes only about 4 turns total to do that. And then you just stick on a gate and gate in some superbugs, or stick on a driver, and you're back to a full production centre (which has 2.5 times that of a non-AR -f, I might add). Rearming the DS, though, does take time, but then again, the Kill Starbase order means that often you just don't bother. If you've got deathstars then it's mid, if not late game, by my book. Certainly not 2415. But anyway - your weaponless deathstar is, surely, exactly the same as a -f without defences and, if your opponent is (for some reason) not using scorched earth tactics, the mines can simply be recaptured. I'd personally worry a little about the vulnerability of remote miners as well - all well and good if you can predict attacks, but if anyone gets the element of surprise both your pop and your miners are toast.

You were talking about big, expensive bases, don't see much else around that's as expensive as those. Of course you can do the same with USs. My point is that even if you lose a DS, you can have it back up again fast.

Adacore wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 17:22

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 02:30 On the other hand though, an AR gets resources just for spreading his pop out, very different to a -f. Also, ARs aren't swimming in points, but they're not that badly off either. And growth % isn't what is the most important for AR, because they can build better breeders (500,000 grows at full rate on an ultrastation) and don't have the same hab limits on pop as others. I agree that really low growth is bad, but 15% is fine for an AR given that you have far more space to grow pop in, and that your resources spent into terra boost your resources. (Almost a substitute for factories there, come to think of it...) And spreading the pop out makes them harder to defend and slower to grow (arguably, anyway). What this will keep coming back to is that blowing up bases is pretty easy, even if they've got 500k pop in them. Capturing planets with 500k pop on them is not (so) easy, and the lost pop will grow back a lot quicker for a -f as well.

True, but your lack of needing to build mines and/or defs means faster to recover. Also, AR can strip pop from other worlds easily and not lose much resources. They can also have much greater resources on an outpost colony with few people than a -f. Good during wartime.

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Hi!

magic9mushroom wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 07:13

How are -f races any more powerful than ARs, given that ARs tend to have better pop eff from 2415 on?

1) In early game -f have minerals, AR doesn't.
2) For killing AR you don't need bombers (that can also be intercepted).

In late game is the situation quite different. The AR's the fastest rebuilder of destroyed planets, because he doesn't need ANYTHING on the surface:
Turn 1: just a colonizer, several LFs of pop and ~200k of each mineral.
Turn 2: orbital (Dock or Ultra) with gates and 500-1000 res output.
Turn 3: gated-in robo-miners (that mine on arrival!), improve orbital / produce ships / do research / whatever.

BR, Iztok

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