[Updated on: Sat, 03 November 2007 08:41] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Dolphin wrote on Fri, 02 November 2007 11:01

I grant that are are vast differences in the amount of micromanagement required for the various races. Yet, even "non-economic" races (SS, SD...) need a lot of attention if you want to play them well. There are very helpful tools (many calculators, some tools for visualization or information and a few battle simulation aids). The visulatization/information tools use some game input (via fleet/planet info exports, not the m-file). Yet, most other tools are stand-alone, i.e. demand the time-consuming input of game data into a third-party system.

Indeed. And those exports are so limited...

Quote:

M-File >all the known "experts" have reached their status by sharing their knowledge. What I was thinking about is not just sharing hints – the community has done that for years and it greatly helped me in understanding the finer points of the game. I was thinking about people like Wumpus, who know the structure of and encryption of the M-File. Yes, it contains a lot of “hidden” information, thus they are reluctant to unlock that secret. Yet, if we ever want to see tools that are integrated into the game, then we need the structure of the M-, H- and X-Files to be public knowledge. Otherwise every aspiring programmer of tools would have to start with decoding the file structure and most will have lost interest (or lack additional time) once they managed that.

Ahhhh. *That* kind of knowledge. Yes, many ppl have been thinking along those same lines, me among them. We used to have a hope that Wumpus would eventually finish coding his "all-purpose-x-file-nasties-catcher" so everybody else would be able to publicly start poking around the m, x, and h files.

Perhaps it's time to try another tack, and for that the "unencripted" Stars! executable seems a good start.

Quote:

>the game structure and its files don't allow for truly automated tools I am not a computer expert but I beg to disagree. If the input (M-file, H-File) and the output (X-File) are well understood, then any decent programmer could create player tools that for example automate the checking for human errors (a wonderful field for integrating a lot of expert knowledge).

My own understanding of the innards is not deep enough, but Stars! was never intended for 3rd party tools, and IIRC some efforts have failed because of that in the past. Also, there's a fair chance that m, h and x files from past turns would be needed for a decent info extraction & x-file tweaking for current ones.

But that would lead us to what you describe next, seems to me.

Quote:

A step up in complexity would be tools helping to automate the economy (pop, minerals, minesweeping) and thus relieve the burden of micromanagement. Ideally, players set goals/targets and the tool suggests solutions that we would then just need to check. What I also miss is support for strategic planning (seeing historic developments and patterns of fleet behaviour, not having all planetary data marked as x year old if much of that data is actually a lot older, e.g. by having a non-scanner ship visiting a planet). Such tools could give more detailed data, i.e. suggest judgement calls based on enemy intel (scores, ship weights, known or suspected tech levels, minefield sizes etc.) about the enemy status. (Simple example: a growing minefield around a planet indicates that one ship of the only enemy minelayer frigate known to us is in orbit). The ship gets added to the enemy fleet as a guess and gets taken into account in predicting the result of one’s minesweeping. Generally, such a tool could provide a worst/best/typical case prediction of the next turn. If the m-file also shows single ship data, not just fleets, it would even allow for a much better tracking of enemy behavior. That would lift the game to a higher level.

Yessssssss, strategy at last, plus a whiff of "DIY AI" too. That's what I miss most too.

I guess the m-file holds "token" data, not ships by themselves. Pl

Report message to a moderator

PaulCr wrote on Fri, 02 November 2007 11:44

If the algorithm is known generally though it would be possible for people to submit to people to cheat my modifying the .x files so a .x file checker would be needed.

Perhaps if you could craft such a tool, or at least its beginnings, for the unencrypted version, that would start the ball rolling...

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Sat, 03 November 2007 04:15]

Report message to a moderator

regiss wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 09:05

Strangely enough I for one wouldn't want all the things that make Stars! taken away by some 3rd party util. It's an old game and helper tools are more than enough. The dedication and number crunching I believe does the rest.

True, but, it takes soooo much time!

How many Large or Huge non-team games have you played lately?

Quote:

I get too much of an AI vs. AI impression from what I'm reading here.

You could always ignore your "strategy advisor" or use it at your peril.

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

I read the the post in the Game Stories but didn't want to "pollute "the thread by saying: there are people out there that *like* the MM ...
Really, for me it's what makes Stars! the game it is and the game I love. I actually feared that SSNG would take away a lot or too much of that, ...

Yes, a lot of times goes into that, but it's time in which I'm having fun!
The only thing I really *do* miss is an instant battlesim (exported from data out off the game). Battles can be so tricky with tech levels, ships damages etc.
And if there for example would be an AI doing the sweeper/counter-sweeper stuff I'd check every move he made, wasting more of my time, in an unfun way.

mch

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

regiss wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 10:39

lol Who in their right mind would play that.

Well, lots of ppl!

Report message to a moderator

Micha wrote on Sat, 03 November 2007 14:00

And if there for example would be an AI doing the sweeper/counter-sweeper stuff I'd check every move he made, wasting more of my time, in an unfun way.

Tools -> Advisors -> Autotargeter -> check "leave minesweepers to me" option.

Report message to a moderator

Soobie wrote on Sun, 04 November 2007 00:37

What sorts of things could be done to simplify Stars? It's such a simple game already (micro-management-wise). Sure I often get the MM wrong, but actually doing the MM is pretty straightforward.

I think it's not only an issue of complexity, as in "how many and which mineral balancing runs will I need to maximize production of this or that design by turn X?" but also of sheer quantity, as in "change the planetary Qs of my 50+ planets to add either my newest Dock (small colonies) or my latest Ultrastation (main worlds) but only if Defenses are at least 85%"

Some ppl relish those things, but others would rather spend more of their time ambushing enemy fleets and such...

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 05 November 2007 18:21

I think it's not only an issue of complexity, as in "how many and which mineral balancing runs will I need to maximize production of this or that design by turn X?" but also of sheer quantity, as in "change the planetary Qs of my 50+ planets to add either my newest Dock (small colonies) or my latest Ultrastation (main worlds) but only if Defenses are at least 85%"

ahhh ... some client-side rules-based conditions/actions, like setting your email rules in Outlook/Eudora/whatever. Very good. I could go with that. Choosing the 40 or 50 flexible (but standard) conditions and rules would be interesting. Then you should have a report that spits out everything that was automated that turn, so you can go in and manually undo it all

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Oooh, I'd love stuff like rules for setting production queues... Like, when I make some tiny update to an orbital in a big game (say, replacing J20 with J30), then I have to go through every single planet performing the same monotonous sequence of clicks to put it in the queue... Then I find the next round that I missed one, so have to wait another year while I upgrade that one before I can finally free up the design slot. Argh.

Also... A helper tool that highlights / generates a list of fleets that have wp0 or wp1 orders set to dump minerals into open space... Oh yeah, I'd pay money for that one

Maybe one that warns you if you've got a fleet with a 81ly waypoint set, but a slower warp configured...

Ships set to move from stargate to stargate, small enough and in range, yet set to travel at warp instead of through the gate...

One that warns you if you're going to miss out on researching a tech level by <20 resources (or maybe even one that warns you if you are not researching enough to cover it if you pick up a level of something else through wp0 drop or scrapping (5 over for cheap, 10 normal, 18 expensive))

All silly mistakes I make in every single game of Stars I play... All that just need someone or something to check through and give me a slap about the head before I submit the turn

Time saving ones... Autobuild limited both by ability to operate them after growth AND capped at 25% / 33% / 50% of planetary capacity. Autobuild terra as long as improvement in planet value is more than x for the next click of terraforming. Add ship x to the queue if mineral stockpiles are greater than 1000kt of each mineral, or some arbitary i,b,g amounts.

Lay mines until field > x mines. (Instead of lay for x years)

[Updated on: Mon, 05 November 2007 23:26]

Report message to a moderator

So, it seems we'll need 1st and foremost some tool that can check if an x file is correctly built so it won't crash the server after all the tweaks the other tools will presumably make...

Then another turn-checker which can relate orders given in the x file to the "universe view" in the h file AND the "current data" in the m file (plus possibly "logged intel" from the player's own "Emperor's log") and validate/critique player/advisor intended effects.

Plus something that can output minefield, packet, salvage, M.T, shipdesign, prodQ, routing, battleplans and possibly other info from the m or h file so the rest of the toolchain can work with those too.

Plus a way to define/store all those nifty "routines" we all want to define for our "advisors" to execute...

Current planet/fleet reports will likely fall short of what the tools will need. Sometimes, waypoints after the 1st are interesting to know, but the fleet report omits them. Also, I'm not entirely happy with the current way of reporting fleet direction. I'm not even sure what those "angle" numbers really mean in the fleet report.

Report message to a moderator

Dogthinkers, you're early with your xmas list.

One more useful item just popped in my head: set a "packet warning". Some conditions to check: PP in the univ, MD shown in enemy SB designs, a certain in-game year reached, ...

...

Add more of these things and it will indeed turn into an AI vs AI match like regiss mentioned ... open turn, save+submit and uplaod would be all you have to do.

mch

Report message to a moderator

Micha wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 11:21

Add more of these things and it will indeed turn into an AI vs AI match like regiss mentioned ... open turn, save+submit and uplaod would be all you have to do.

Well, that would take some sort of "Strategizing Advisor" for deciding likely targets for attacks, direct the war econ, conduct basic diplomacy...

Report message to a moderator

m.a@stars wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 12:35

Micha wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 11:21 Add more of these things and it will indeed turn into an AI vs AI match like regiss mentioned ... open turn, save+submit and uplaod would be all you have to do. Well, that would take some sort of "Strategizing Advisor" for deciding likely targets for attacks, direct the war econ, conduct basic diplomacy...

People will ask for that too! Doesn't Xtreme Borders already have a "probability of attack"? Link that with where best to build ships, hence where to ship minerals etc. Add a list of ship designs and counters et voila. The AI will have no problems with simming battles, it will have all data needed, and can make all other calculations ...

As for a Diplomatic Counselor I'll take one of those! Let him do all the *cough*lying*cough*, flattering and threatening ... and writing of all those 1000 mails per game, THAT is were a lot of time is spent (and wasted)!

...

Hm, when I get home from work this evening I'll play god (not allowed to do that at work <g>), create a universe, fill it with only AI players and start genning! Behold the future of Stars!!


mch

[Updated on: Tue, 06 November 2007 09:45]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Wow, it sounds like I started an avalance of creativity here. So how do we go about making it happen, folks?

My suggestion is:
1. m-file MT sanitizer (for hosts)
2. publishing file structures
3. x-file cheat checker (esp. for hosts)
4. x-file blunder alert (as Dogthinker suggested)
5. then tackling all the other more complicated stuff...

There seem to be a lot of people volunteering ideas, so who is able to DO it (and earn the Stars! community eternal gratitude)?

Dirk

Report message to a moderator

Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 06 November 2007 05:05

Oooh, I'd love stuff like rules for setting production queues... Like, when I make some tiny update to an orbital in a big game (say, replacing J20 with J30), then I have to go through every single planet performing the same monotonous sequence of clicks to put it in the queue... Then I find the next round that I missed one, so have to wait another year while I upgrade that one before I can finally free up the design slot. Argh. Also... A helper tool that highlights / generates a list of fleets that have wp0 or wp1 orders set to dump minerals into open space... Oh yeah, I'd pay money for that one Maybe one that warns you if you've got a fleet with a 81ly waypoint set, but a slower warp configured... Ships set to move from stargate to stargate, small enough and in range, yet set to travel at warp instead of through the gate...

Most of what you ask for do to some extent already exsist: in the menu item "Report" -> Planet / Fleets. You can't mass update but using the reports the right way will dramatically reduce the time needed as well as manual errors.

Planets:

Starbase update: sort the list by "Starbase", click in the production column to open that planet's production dialog

Routing fleets: reverse sort by "Routing"


Fleets:

WP0/1 dump: sort the fleet list by "Task" and you can quickly spot the fleets with a destination in deep space.

Fleets not at full speed: reverse sort by "ETA", Gating will be shown as "1y".

Unload before gating: sort by "ETA", and you will see the warning "unload" in yellow text in the ETA column.

Out of fuel: skim the ETA column. Any ship without enough fuel to reach the NEXT waypoint will have its ETA in red color. You can also reverse sort by "Fuel" to find those with zero amounts.

Minefield as destination (those that are only 1-2 ly from a planet that you sometimes pick by mistake): sort by "Destination" and scroll to "Standard Minefield", or "Speed..." or "Heavy..." (not tested)

Battle plan: sort by "Composition" to see that all your beam BBs have "Max damage" and so on. Remember the most common ship in the fleet is what you see, so remember to check the "chaff" fleets also.

Minelayers: sort by "Composition" and look at the "Task" column to check they are laying mines.

Remote miners: se minelayers

Damaged ships(fleets) are shown in red in the "Composition" column.

Unfortunately there is no warning for the illogical orders that triggers a warning in the Waypoint Task pane such as mergeing with a planet.

Report message to a moderator

perrindom wrote on Wed, 07 November 2007 08:35

Most of what you ask for do to some extent already exsist: in the menu item "Report" -> Planet / Fleets. You can't mass update but using the reports the right way will dramatically reduce the time needed as well as manual errors.

Yes, I do all these things already, but still make mistakes...

For example, *if* I remember, and have the time, to check the wp1 orders in the fleet dialog I can avoid wp1 dropping my minerals into space. Unfortunately that wouldn't have helped me in Glacier, where early in the game I dropped 1200kt of precious germanium *wp0* into space when changing a fleet's destination. I don't think the fleet dialog shows wp0 orders for moving ships, and clicking through every loaded fleet is not fun. After my mistake, I made the painfull MM decision to completely stop using transport orders (doing all uploads/downloads manually) until mid-game where another accident wouldn't be so crippling. Not quite sure how I managed this mistake, but checking the fleet list wouldn't have helped on this one.

Yeah, I do sort by planets to update starbases... Towards the end of the "The End", as AR, numerous times I had to make small updates to hundreds of orbitals at a time - I become acutely aware of things like RSI when doing forced repetitive and mindless steps like that in stars. Making the decision to upgrade a starbase design is the mental/skill part. Actually persuading the game to implement my orders is the main thing I'd like to see more streamlined

Quote:

Fleets not at full speed: reverse sort by "ETA", Gating will be shown as "1y".

Not sure how this helps... Suppose I have just 100 fleets. How can I tell at a glace which fleets are merely 2 or more years from their destination, rather than at the wrong speed? Well, I suppose this'd be something fairly easy to set up a automated test for from the exported fleet reports, at least.

Quote:

Unload before gating: sort by "ETA", and you will see the warning "unload" in yellow text in the ETA column.

This is a good one. I check this one every year. It's so easy... This is how I'd like a lot of the other 'mistakes' to be highlighted. Unfortunately it's still hard to tell when a ship has not been set to gate when it should have, assuming you have enough worlds to not know them all by name and which have gates.

Quote:

Battle plan: sort by "Composition" to see that all your beam BBs have "Max damage" and so on. Remember the most common ship in the fleet is what you see, so remember to check the "chaff" fleets also.

I wish I'd done this last year in one of my current games, lol. My warfleet danced around just outside of range of a torp starbase, getting shot repeatedly until they finally disengaged, rather than fire at the easy to kill orbital... Now my opponent even has a gate up

Report message to a moderator