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problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 16:18

timo5316

Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 7
Registered: June 2006

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SPOILER WARNING: If you are a player in the current "Dawn of Man II" game, please do not read further. It may spoil the game for you and/or others. Thanks!
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Hi Stars experts,

I have some trouble with a chaff-killer design. Basically, my ships do not close in to attack the enemy chaff although they could. This is the design:

BC: 2xIS-10, 2xSBC, 2xCapacitor, 4xbear shield, 9xheavy blaster
1.75 speed+0.5 WM bonus makes for 2.25 speed and 3 moves in turn 1.

I ran a testbed with 2 parties. My own ships:
- some chaff killers of the aforementioned design
- some beamer BCs with the same design EXCEPT disruptors instead of heavy blasters
- DD BCs as main missile force
- chaff

The simulated enemy:
- beamer BB with heavy blasters
- shield sapper CCs
- DD CCs as main missile force
- chaff

Since my chaff is faster than normal chaff (WM "bonus"), his BB design is able to kill my chaff in turn 1. So I designed the beamer BCs with disruptors to kill his BBs (chaff-killer killer). What happens in round one is that my chaff killers only advance 2 steps, although they could do three and attack the BB and sappers CCs instead of the chaff. I calculated attractiveness with Stars! Calculator and the results are clear. The enemy's chaff attractiveness is much higher than the attractiveness of the other ships. And no salvo has been shot before such that the attractiveness could not increase due to damage. Battle orders are set to "maximise damage". So why don't my chaff killers close in and try to reach the chaff? I simply cannot find a logical explanation for this behavior. Any help/advice is greatly appreciated!

- Timo

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 17:15

Ptolemy

Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

First of all, in round one, no ships will move 3 squares - on the first round of battle. Here is the battle board description from the guts of the battle board:

Quote:

First, all tokens target an enemy token that best meets their battle plan criteria.

� Second, all ships move, in order from heaviest to lightest. Ships' weights are randomly adjusted by up to 15% each
turn, giving ships that are nearly identical a chance to alternate going first. All ships that can move three squares
this round move one square first, then all ships that can move two squares move one square, then all ships that can
move at least one square move a square.

� Third, weapons fire, in order from highest initiative to lowest.

So, everybody moves one square first. One the next round, everyone will move again and, faster ships will be in range but chaff may not be in range of beamers.

Now, you are going to target the ships that are in range first - not the chaff because they aren't in range.

If you want your chaff to live longer, give it 'minimize damage to self' orders or tell it to target soemthing else - like bombers if there aren't any.

Ptolemy

Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 17:57

timo5316

Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 7
Registered: June 2006

Hi again,

thanks Ptolemy for the clarification. Still, the behavior of the chaff killers is weird. They are able to move three squares in the first movement cycle (before the fire for the first time). Given that they have range 3 weapons, they would reach the enemy's chaff after the first cycle and could attack it. However, they move only two squares and, therefore, cannot attack the chaff. If they had chosen the chaff as the most attractive token, they should have closed in to reach it (and they should have gone three squares in the first cycle). So it might be the case that another token already in range (shield sappers and beamer BB were in range) was more attractive. But according to the attractiveness calculations, the chaff must have been the most attractive target. That is why I think it's weird.

- Timo

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 19:19

Ptolemy

Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Keep in mind that the maximum movement in battle is 2� squares. That means the ship moves 1 square, then 3 squares, then 2, then 3, 2, 3 2 for the rest of the battle.

You also have to check attractiveness based on the enemies cost for ships. Minituriztion affects the cost. His chaff could actually be less attractive.

PErsonally, I plan on having enough firepower to kill everything that might be where I'm going. I like overkill by 200% Wink

Ptolemy

Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 20:24

Bystander

Chief Warrant Officer 1

Duel Club Champion 2007
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 141
Registered: June 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA

In a real game, you have to account for the fact that enemy ships may have existing damage before the battle starts. In testbeds, miniaturization can have a big impact. Since this is a testbed . . .

I think it is your choice of battle orders. The Stars! help file states:

"Maximize damage � Attempts to get in range of at least one ship of the target class with all your ships weapons, then tries to maximize the damage done. This tactic does not care about damage taken."

-----
Key phrase is "at least one ship of target class". I interpret that as your primary target, probably armed ships. As soon as it is in range of an armed ship, it abandons attractiveness and maximizes on what it is already near. Try the more traditional "maximize damage ratio" orders. If it can maximize the damage ratio by getting near the chaff, it will.

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 21:05

AlexTheGreat

Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia

I'm not sure if this applies to your situ but you should bear in mind that attractiveness changes during a battle. eg. frigate chaff would normally be more attractive than shielded warships but once the warships are sapped the FF chaff will usually be less attractive & will thus be ignored until the warships are destroyed. Scout chaff is sometimes a better choice for that reason since that is far more attractive than FF chaff.

The 15% random adjustment of Ships' weights applies to both the heavy & the light ship so a ship can be a fair bit heavier than the lighter one & still move last. Eg. a 300Kt ship has a 25.26% chance of moving last if the lighter ship is 275Kt.

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 22:43

Ptolemy

Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland

Also remember that Stars! doesn't use much floating point math. Most things in this game get rounded up or down to whole numbers. Ships that are very close in attractiveness could actually be counted as having teh same attractiveness in which case the heavier ship will probably be targeted first.

I suggest that if the enemy chaff isn't being treated like chaff, send in several capital missile ships - they'll chew through those ships that the chaff are supposed to be protecting leaving you with only chaff to kill Smile

Ptolemy

Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 26 August 2007 23:55

Dogthinkers

Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar

ok...

I've got a few things to add

1) The ships *should* move 3 on the first round. As the helpfile states (and I've test, not recently, but in the past to verify this) the total squares movement per round is correct in the the table provided in the helpfile (guts -> guts of combat -> movement initiative and firing in battle)

Move 2.25 should move: 3,2,2,2,3,2,2,2.

2) Attractiveness is not only affected by damage, it's also slightly randomised at the start of the battle, like ship weights are and the firing order of ships with the same initiative (note: I haven't personally tested for this feature of attractiveness, I'm just going by stuff I've read.)

3) Maximise damage *should* try to maximise the damage done, regardless of return fire. Since range 3 weapons do less damage at range 3 than range 2, they should close to range 2 anyway. I don't see why they are stopping short... Unless, perhaps, they have enough firepower to wipe out the enemy token at range 3?

I'll have to play around and test this, if I can find the time, I'm very curious about this result.

Adding a range 2 beam to the ship, ideally a gatling of some sort, might fix your range problem. Also, if you have sappers that can mess things up too, since that gets different attractiveness values too.

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Sun, 02 September 2007 08:30

mazda

Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK

Is the movement

chaff-killers

BBs
chaff-killers
your chaff

BBs
both chaff

i.e. it is your final move that does not take place, or is something else happening ?

also what is the behaviour of the heavier missile ships ?
can you add-in where they move

[Updated on: Sun, 02 September 2007 08:38]

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Re: problem with chaff killing: ships do not close in

Fri, 07 September 2007 17:01

Marduk

Ensign

Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH

Ptolemy wrote on Sun, 26 August 2007 17:15

First of all, in round one, no ships will move 3 squares - on the first round of battle. Here is the battle board description from the guts of the battle board:

Quote:

Second, all ships move, in order from heaviest to lightest. Ships' weights are randomly adjusted by up to 15% each turn, giving ships that are nearly identical a chance to alternate going first. All ships that can move three squares this round move one square first, then all ships that can move two squares move one square, then all ships that can move at least one square move a square.

So, everybody moves one square first. One the next round, everyone will move again and, faster ships will be in range but chaff may not be in range of beamers.

I interpreted this to mean that all ships that can move three move first, and having used one square of movement they are now ships that can move two. Then all ships that can move two move now, and having used one square of movement they are now ships that can move one. Finally, all ships that can move one get to move.

So a ship that can move three does move three times; once with the three-move ships, again with the two-move ships and finally with the single-move ships.

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