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More questions on SD (and the ED, kind of ...) Sat, 04 August 2007 02:36 Go to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
Hi all! Some questions I have been pondering this cold winter's weekend.

Q1) Putting aside pros and cons of a -f SD, if you are running a 3.0 cheap SD, is the Energy Dampener & Various Minelayers enough to justify choosing En cheap over Prop+En normal, if I have not gone the IFE/NRSE/Grav imm combo? (In fact, feel free to expand that to "How would you choose your 3.0 cheap tech?" Seems to me SD could almost get away with Weaps normal Razz)

Q2) Corollary Question 1: Is there ever any reason for SD to take El normal or cheap?? (I'm thinking "No", but I'm often wrong Smile)

Q3) Corollary Question 2: If I'm non-TT -f, can I take Bio exp, even though it is important for getting the better normal minelayers? (I'm thinking "Get to Bio 7 and just sit there for a long time before worrying about going to Bio 12.)

Q4) If I have the ED on a frigate and some clever mongrel targets unarmed ships and manages to take it out in round 2, does the slowing effect stop or does it continue the whole battle? ((I've not managed to achieve this in a test bed, hence asking the Q - yes I am hopeless on the battleboard, I admit it.))

Q5) If it is the case that when the ED is destroyed during a battle it does the stop the slowing effect from that point on, what's the ship design and orders that can take out that ED in round 2 for me?!? Very Happy

Q6) If I have 1in5/1in6 hab, can SD get away with keeping a typical breeder in the early-midgame to late-midgame giving 600~700 res pa. I mean is that enough to get by (eg, really keeping the pop down around the max pop breeding% rather than balancing econ) or does SD really need that 1,000 res+ per planet ongoing to pump out those MLs along with all the usual biz?

Thanks to any that can help out with any of these super basic questions that are dizzying my simple mind Smile
...

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Re: More questions on SD (and the ED, kind of ...) Sat, 04 August 2007 13:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
Location: Hiding from Meklar
Q1) If you are a -f SD, I'd probably go for 3.5 cheap and moot the whole question Razz

Only the heavy200 and the ED are past en9. So en can even be taken expensive if you must. The ED is very cool though. en+prop both normal is fine. Prop expensive without IFE/NRSE is probably unwise. Resist the temptation to go weap normal. The game you take weap normal, will be the game that you'll find yourself sandwiched between two or three hostile -f WM races.

Q2) SD can get away with el expensive even more easily than most races, since the minefield scan helps. Jammers suit you well, used in conjunction with exploding minelayers and the energy dampener, but the the j10 comes at only el10. But 'ever any reason'... Well if you are not NAS and want to trade penscans, that'd be a reason.

Q3) Yes, you can take it exp. As you say, you'll stop at bio7 for quite a while (for -f SD, you'll probably *never* go past bio 7)

Q4) The slowing effect persists for the duration of the battle.

Q6) Your breeders should be breeding until all your other worlds are full. So that's more like 350 resources max per breeder. The <75% worlds you will fill up completely - these will be your heavy manufacturing worlds in mid game. In late game, you'll eventually fill everything, of course. But late game shouldn't occur - you are -f, you should have won before 'late game' is reached.


[Updated on: Sat, 04 August 2007 13:52]

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Re: More questions on SD (and the ED, kind of ...) Mon, 06 August 2007 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
Dogthinkers wrote on Sun, 05 August 2007 03:17

... lots of interesting answers. Thanks! Smile ...

Q6) Your breeders should be breeding until all your other worlds are full. So that's more like 350 resources max per breeder. The <75% worlds you will fill up completely - these will be your heavy manufacturing worlds in mid game. In late game, you'll eventually fill everything, of course. But late game shouldn't occur - you are -f, you should have won before 'late game' is reached.


Putting aside -f for one moment, what would be the lowest res output that an SD could get away with if they went with a lightly industrialised option - eg: putting aside the better use 350~450RW points could be put to, 10/8~9/10 facs doubles your potential res to around 2.2K with OBRM, with an average at ~45% pop of say 1K res and say 1.5K from the <75% worlds. Is 1K~1.5K res for a big chunk of the game a useful number or too low?

Cheers
S.

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Re: More questions on SD (and the ED, kind of ...) Mon, 06 August 2007 03:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

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Well... Of course doubling your res would be usefull. Very Happy

But you are asking the wrong question. It's not a question of 'would these resources be usefull', it's a question of 'would these resources be usefull, after considering how much I have to invest *in game* and in race wizard points to get these resources.

I think something like 10/9/10 factories is a bit unpleasant, for the first part of that question. I've seen race designs that use it (specifically, CA monsters, but it's hard not to monster a CA...) but I don't think they are good settings in general - the ramp up is slow for the benefit (it takes 9 years for a factory to pay for itself) and it doesn't peak very high. I'd rather bite the bullet and go -f if I felt that short on points for economy.

Something like 12/9/12 doesn't cost much (114 points more than 10/9/10) but gets to a higher economy in almost the same length of time. My spreadsheet says both economies complete in seven years, and it'll give you substantially more at the end. Assuming 1/1000 pop eff, it'd give you 2.44 res per 1000 colonists, compared to 2.0. I think it's definately worth finding the extra 114 points to take these settings as a minimum, if you plan to build any factories at all.

Factory efficiency 12 is one of the 'breakpoints' in the wizard - going to efficiency 13 costs substantially more than it did to increase frmo 10 to 11, and from 11 to 12. So 12/9/x where x is about 12-14 is a good safe set of values to use for HG style races.

In case you are interested, the first breakpoint in factory count comes with a big jump in the cost to go from 16 to 17 factories, but I'd usually increase efficency further before I reached 16 and then you're really talking about a QS or HP race.


[Updated on: Mon, 06 August 2007 03:58]

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Re: More questions on SD (and the ED, kind of ...) Mon, 06 August 2007 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 17:25

Well... Of course doubling your res would be usefull. Very Happy

But you are asking the wrong question. It's not a question of 'would these resources be usefull', it's a question of 'would these resources be usefull, after considering how much I have to invest *in game* and in race wizard points to get these resources.

I think something like 10/9/10 factories is a bit unpleasant, for the first part of that question. I've seen race designs that use it (specifically, CA monsters, but it's hard not to monster a CA...) but I don't think they are good settings in general - the ramp up is slow for the benefit (it takes 9 years for a factory to pay for itself) and it doesn't peak very high. I'd rather bite the bullet and go -f if I felt that short on points for economy.

Something like 12/9/12 doesn't cost much (114 points more than 10/9/10) but gets to a higher economy in almost the same length of time. My spreadsheet says both economies complete in seven years, and it'll give you substantially more at the end. Assuming 1/1000 pop eff, it'd give you 2.44 res per 1000 colonists, compared to 2.0. I think it's definately worth finding the extra 114 points to take these settings as a minimum, if you plan to build any factories at all.

Factory efficiency 12 is one of the 'breakpoints' in the wizard - going to efficiency 13 costs substantially more than it did to increase frmo 10 to 11, and from 11 to 12. So 12/9/x where x is about 12-14 is a good safe set of values to use for HG style races.

In case you are interested, the first breakpoint in factory count comes with a big jump in the cost to go from 16 to 17 factories, but I'd usually increase efficency further before I reached 16 and then you're really talking about a QS or HP race.


I often ask the wrong question. I count on others to pick up on that fact. Very Happy

*takes a deeeeeep breath* yeahbuttheproblemwith12/9/12isthatIcan'tkeep1in5habwith1imm, 3.0cheap and19%PGR. Confused ... although I can get it with 19% PGR, 3.0 che
...

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Re: More questions on SD (and the ED, kind of ...) Mon, 06 August 2007 22:15 Go to previous message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
Commander

Messages: 1316
Registered: August 2003
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Soobie wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:30

*takes a deeeeeep breath* yeahbuttheproblemwith12/9/12isthatIcan'tkeep1in5habwith1imm, 3.0cheap and19%PGR. Confused ... although I can get it with 19% PGR, 3.0 cheap, 1 in 4 no-imm, 2 wide 1 narrow as long as I don't check the G box ... *contemplates life without an immune*


Laughing

Welcome to the race wizard. Very Happy Looks like it isn't going to take -f settings without that inconvenient -f part Laughing

Quote:

errr .... how does SD handle no immune?


Well, same as most races... Probably a little better than many, since it can defend relatively casually so can maybe afford to invest a bit more time terraforming in early game.

I'd drop to 18% and sacrifice a little bit of hab, and keep the immunity.

With only 12 factories to build and 1/1000 pop efficiency, you can live with with 4g factories just fine.

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