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| On the accidental breaking of NAPs ... |
Wed, 18 July 2007 23:41  |
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| Soobie |
 | Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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OK, a semi-hypothetical situation:
It is the early stages of a game (lets call it mid20s). Player A and Player B have a NAP which has been working out quite well (probably better for Player B than Player A). Player A has a significant resource, mineral and ship production capacity/lead over Player B (and possibly a reasonable tech lead in some non-essential areas, but otherwise tech is pretty even - both have tech sufficient to take out most early SBs at need and sufficient to build quite a few M80 bombers, etc).
Player B accidently pop-drops a reasonably populated Player A planet (lets say its a genuine accident - possible due to, say, a stupid tactical error by Player A because he was sidetracked by real world issues  ) taking the Player A planet. Player B offers reparations because the mistake was genuine.
Player A would prefer not to enter a war with Player B: While Player A is confident of victory, his present build up is targeting another player. There are reasons why taking out the alternative player is preferable and the wrong war will be painful in the short, if not long, term.
Player A has a 3+ decision conundrum:
1) Revisit strategy, treat the NAP as broken and go to war with Player B (strategically not ideal and more costly than desired for this early stage of the game due to the need to redesign fleet and probable losses in the interim);
2) Accept lenient reparations and get on with the existing strategy;
3) Ask for high/exorbitant reparations and stress further a NAP which is now under considerable (albeit accidental) pressure?
4) An alternative not thought of?
(My personal preference is (2) but that's just me  )
So ...
A) How would others handle a situation like this?
B) What other interesting scenarios have people been through with NAPs/Alliances that are shareable (is 'shareable' a word?  )?
Cheers
S.
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| Re: On the accidental breaking of NAPs ... |
Thu, 19 July 2007 00:25  |
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 Iconian |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Option 2 is probably closest to my answer too. I'd probably take a close look at the damage caused by the pop drop and determine what would be a reasonable amount of reparations to ask for, and then ask for that.
It might depend on a few other questions, such as "What has the past relationship between A and B been?" Have there been similar accidents, for instance? If yes, then asking for high reparations might be a good idea, to show race B that you're not going to roll over and take it, and to give them some incentive to be more careful in the future. If I suspect that the accident may not actually have been accidenal, I'd ask for even more reparations, perhaps along with a firm statement like "Do that again, and our NAP is over."
There are also a few other factors to take into account. For one thing, remember that reparations don't always have to be made immediately. Consider that 10,000 colonists in 2425 might be worth more like 100,000 colonists in 2435 in terms of economic impact. The incident may have happened in 2425, but maybe saying "We'll discuss reparations at a future date," would be better. Or, maybe you could accept some reparations now, some later. You could do this for a variety of reasons--for instance, waiting until the ally is more capable of sending the reparations you believe they owe you.
If you simply do what's best for your race, things may not work out well. Optimally, relationships in Stars! and real life should be based on common understanding, with each side seeking for the other's welfare, not just their own. Is it absolutely necessary that you receive any reparations at all? If not, perhaps a simple apology, or lenient reparations as you suggested, would suffice. You might also accompany your reparations request with a friendly little warning to pay more attention.
Yeah, bread too.
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| Re: On the accidental breaking of NAPs ... |
Thu, 19 July 2007 10:29 |
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The tactical error would likely be not building an an orbital fort, if the planet was "well populated". That would not be an excuse to pop drop it.
If someone accidently pop drops, then you have a pretex to break the NAP if it's in your interest to do so.
By the sounds of it, you already have a target lined up, so why risk a war on two fronts by attacking a border secured by the NAP? I would sue for reparations in this particular case.
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| Re: On the accidental breaking of NAPs ... |
Thu, 19 July 2007 14:33 |
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| Iconian |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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A few more things about this topic.
As vonkreedon said, if there's been a pattern that should be a big warning signal. But also, look at the local strategic impact of the pop drop. Specifically, is it possible another player hired player B to weaken that particular planet in preparation for an attack or something--or that in some way B might be using the attack as a way to offset the local balance of power? From the description it doesn't sound like it, but it's something to keep in mind.
Remember, you don't always have to jump on something right away. Often it can be best to address an issue as soon as it presents itself, but sometimes it's better to wait. For instance, let's say you tell B that they owe you x amount of reparations, and they decline to give them to you. You could say, "Then it's war," but this probably isn't best. Instead, just say, "Well, can you help me out with the war against this other race?" Don't let on that you're annoyed by their bad attitude. Then continue the war you had planned with the other race, chances are you'll be able to get the help of B against them. When the war is nearing its conclusion with you and B as the victors, start building some warships and bombers you can use to fight B. When you're ready, put your ships at nearby B planets and tell them that you're only willing to accept a delay in reparations for so long, and if they don't like it you'll obtain the reparations by force. Note that this isn't going to do much good for your relationship with that race though.
| Quote: |
B) What other interesting scenarios have people been through with NAPs/Alliances that are shareable (is 'shareable' a word? )?
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A couple of things happened earlier in Hardheads. Very early, when I was still scanning the galaxy, I met a race fairly distant from me and offered them a NAP, which they accepted. Immediately afterward I mentioned that I was preparing to move into the region, and on that note I made a Border Declaration: here's a line, please don't cross it. I had yet to scan their HW by that time, and it turned out that their HW lay on my side of the line I'd set down. They got quite pissed and told the galaxy about it. I replied back to them and the galaxy, offering reparations in Germ for the insult I'd unknowingly made to them, but afterwards I realized that in the apology message I had actually insulted again, making light of some of the things they said. They didn't even accept my offered reparations, and things turned quickly downhill. In the end I found them building warships up near one of my planets and eventually declared war. I learned my lesson about declaring borders though . . .
A while later, there was a fairly minor incident I had with one of my allies. Way back around 2410 we'd agreed on a treaty where we set each other to Friend, which I did promptly. I mostly kept to my own space thereafter, but one year I was bringing a scout or something back to my territory and had it stop at one of his Space Stations for a refuel, but it didn't get refueled. He'd been violating our treaty in some other ways too, so I wasn't too happy, set him to Neutral, and told him about the incident and what I'd done. I was already in two wars and didn't want a third, and apparently he didn't want one either. I was happy when he responded and set me to Friend, so we got it worked out.
Most of the time I don't think even a threat of war is necessary. There are generally plenty of tools available to use long before making such a threat.
Yeah, bread too.
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| Re: On the accidental breaking of NAPs ... |
Thu, 19 July 2007 17:34 |
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I have seen this happen on several occasions. Usually, the player in error sends a message immediatly saying he's sorry, it was an accident etc. Usually, the other player simply says 'fine, just give the planet back'. If the apology is immediate with the offer of leaving, I just say OK and get on with things.
However, I do tend to play more carefully with that border and tend to send at least some forces to be prepared to defend the area in the event that it wasn't such an innocent mistake. I certainly do send the troops and a colonizer to take the planet back. Additionally, if it ever becomes of strategic value to terminate the NAP, that 'error' makes for a good 'reason' for deciding to do so.... 
Ptolemy
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| Re: On the accidental breaking of NAPs ... |
Sun, 22 July 2007 15:36 |
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Yes, VonKreeden is correct, I wouldn't use a treaty violation for which reparations had been accepted as an excuse to break a treaty later either. Once reparations have been accepted, the error must be considered never to have happened at all.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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because I do love this kind of Machiavellian diplomatic thinking.