Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW
| Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Fri, 29 June 2007 04:13  |
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| Soobie |
 | Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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Hi,
This is probably 2 threads, but they both relate to strategic subterfuge. Here goes:
Just wondering if anyone has
1) Had success with entering a game (against strong players) and immediately emulated another PRT for a decent length of time before revealing your true PRT colours?
Similarly, has anyone successfully "sacrificed" their HW, or at least hidden it somehow - say, radically enhancing a breeder early and then pulling huge pop off the HW? (thought about doing it the other day when I came across a natural 100% breeder early in a game).
Cheers
S.
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Fri, 29 June 2007 07:51  |
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Since Dogthinker has answered teh HW question, I will answer the PRT issue.
It is possible with some PRT's to hide their true nature.
PP, SS, JOAT, IS, and WM can all hide their PRT to some degree - some better than others.
CA and HE are pretty much impossible for the following simple reasons; HE will almost certainly have to use the mini-colonizer and any CA planet scanned with a small population that has been just been landed on will show the instant terraforming.
PP can masquerade as IT for quite some time if construction is researched quickly to the stargate 100/250 and some early orbtal forts are constructed with the gate. IT can't really hide since it already has gates and will use them. Also, an IT would have to try to masquerade as a PP if the secondary is scanned fairly early. Nobody in their right mind would try to pretend to be a PP and an IT couldn't throw PP sized packets early enough to pretend to be a PP anyway.
SS can pretend to be pretty much anything but that doesn't last long since it becomes pretty obvious that ships are 75% cloaked as soon as one is seen.
JOAT, WM, and IS can all pretend to be each other for some time. JOAT will get found out as soon as one of the scouts or frigates without a scanner is seen investigating planets. WM will get found out the first time one of it's ships is in a battle. IS will be seen if it lays speed trap mines or uses the fuel transport.
I'm not even mentioning SD - no SD would not lay mines or build the mini minelayer.
OF all of these, I think the PP pretending to be IT is the most viable but, PP is the most difficult PRT to play successfully (though I do happen to like PP quite a bit).
Ptolemy
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Fri, 29 June 2007 18:41 |
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| Soobie |
| Officer Cadet 3rd Year |
Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia | |
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| vonKreedon wrote on Sat, 30 June 2007 01:42 |
I've had players deduce my PRT based on the icon of my initial scout, so it is very difficult to disguise ones PRT against experienced players.
I used to work hard to disguise my HW location, planet hopping my scouts/colonizers to another world before launching into deep space, but I've since decided that it's generally not worth the trouble.
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Based on the icon? If there are duplicate icons, does the icon change to a known icon for each PRT?
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Sun, 01 July 2007 12:16 |
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 dethdukk |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 200
Registered: June 2005 | |
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IS can hide their PRT as long as they want, but you give up things like transit growth, croby, fuel transport, ect. However, if you do hide it well, its nice to suprise somebody with croby frigates when they think you are something else. Such as, get gates early, and throw up forts with gates everywhere, they think you are IT.
If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Sun, 01 July 2007 12:44 |
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| Quote: |
IS can hide their PRT as long as they want, but you give up things like transit growth...
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Giving up growth in transit is an interesting idea - never thought of that!
Cheers,
Thor
[Updated on: Sun, 01 July 2007 12:45] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Sun, 01 July 2007 16:36 |
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| Iconian |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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| Quote: |
Seems odd for me to hide your PRT by avoiding usage of very strong advantages early like PP packet scouting, HE mini colonizer hull, IS fuel transport, IS pop growth in transit, JOAT penscanning, SD mini minelayer hull etc. Sounds like hiding IFE LRT by never building FM?
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I can understand maybe sacrificing some things to hide your PRT or LRT's, but I'd generally rather get the benefit out of those things than hide them and lose the benefit. Like you said, what's the point of hiding your FM? If you can hide something at minimal cost, I think it's probably safe to do so. But why would an IS give up its growth in freighters? What's that, maybe 5% of its economy down the drain, possibly 10%? Granted, there is a balance involved there, but how often is it going to make a huge difference whether your enemy thinks your IT or IS?
Of course, deception can be useful, particularly if you're already at war with someone. But before that, as Kotk said, aren't those attempts at hiding just creating distrust?
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If someone puts major effort into hiding or lying about such things he is not trustworthy and may have issues with others too also he is probably not too strong player. Put it all together and dangerous friend and profitable enemy is detected!
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Trying to hide your HW shows your distrust for other races from the start. But even so, I attempted to hide my HW in Hardheads, though only via deceptive ship movement. My primary reasoning was to keep possible quickstart races from building up a fleet c. 2410 and attacking, or some PP from packeting my HW away. A sudden attack like that can knock virtually any player out of the running, no matter how good. I believe creating that bit of distrust is worth it if it keeps you from getting hit by a QS.
Of course, I realized that distrust generally breeds more distrust, and I publicly broadcast my desire for peace in 2400. Among other things, that helped to counter that possible bit of distrust.
| Quote: |
IS can hide their PRT as long as they want, but you give up things like transit growth, croby, fuel transport, ect. However, if you do hide it well, its nice to suprise somebody with croby frigates when they think you are something else. Such as, get gates early, and throw up forts with gates everywhere, they think you are IT.
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And how much difference does it make if they think you're IT or IS? Let's say you build your gates, and they decide you're probably IT and that you'll probably start gating lots of warships in, jihad CC's say. So they build their own ships and send them into the area to defend. Then you show up with--surprise surprise--Croby frigates! And so what? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just don't see how that would turn much to your benefit. Would the psychological impact really be that significant? Would their ship designs be that much different as a result of them thinking you were IT vs IS? If those designs were different somehow, would it be worth it?
I read a game story where someone decided not to build mini colonizers just so no one would know they were HE. Granted, in the past some people had a hyper-xenophobic attitude toward HE's--the old "Kill the HE first" mantra. At one time then, hiding that PRT might have been useful. These days though, what's the point? Trading to get mini colonizers would be a wonderful benefit for any race, IMO (though some more than others).
Yeah, bread too.
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Sun, 01 July 2007 19:02 |
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| dethdukk |
| Chief Warrant Officer 3 |
Messages: 200
Registered: June 2005 | |
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Well lets see... using your example.
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Let's say you build your gates, and they decide you're probably IT and that you'll probably start gating lots of warships in, jihad CC's say. So they build their own ships and send them into the area to defend. Then you show up with--surprise surprise--Croby frigates!
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Firstly, they will expect much larger ships, and will design accordingly. They will expect Missle boats, and will design accordingly. So, fighting hordes of beamers when you expect to be fighting missle ships makes a huge difference. Also, if the IS times it right, he can get missle boats to the front line right as the other race starts building for beamers. Also, having someone think you are IT instead of IS makes diplomacy a lot different. They may be more afraid of you because of your ability to gate huge vessels. They may want to use the advantage of your early gate network. I am sure there are more, but I am tired and cant think of it right now. Also, you dont need to totally get rid of your pop-growth. If you know their intelligence only reaches so far, you can use pop-growth where they cant see it. Also, not all players check the weight of transports every year, or even at all. Of course, these methods may not work with more advanced players, and it would probably just be better to maximise your economy.
If you cannot love, you will always hate, and in hate there is only death.
[img]http://dragcave.net/image/XIJh.gif[/img] <--- is teh dragon!Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Emulating another PRT and/or sacrificing HW |
Mon, 02 July 2007 11:14 |
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| vonKreedon |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA | |
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When I've played PP I've tried to disguise my PRT as I expect that at least one neighbor would quickly decide I had to go if my neighbors knew I was PP. PP being a very difficult race to ramp up quickly combined with the fear its drivers engender makes it an obvious quick kill target. However, if your neighbor notices that you have two starting worlds and notes your initial scout ship icon is different from IT's then your efforts are in vain  So, to disguise IT or PP you have to scrap your initial scout. You could also not scout from your secondary planet, but that seems like giving up too much when I'm already giving up packet scouting.
Croby/mini-Gun FFs can be absolutely devastating if you design and play your IS race correctly. It is possible with a -f IS in a small galaxy to get an overwhelming fleet, including Black Cat B-17s, over an enemy HW in less than 22 turns. As you add to your horde of such FFs they can remain effective ships for quite a while and then they become excellent minesweepers.
[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 11:15] Report message to a moderator
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Sounds like hiding IFE LRT by never building FM? 
anyway.