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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 24 June 2008 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 21:50

Indeed, but to build a decent fast BC you need to not have NRSE.
But the BC doesn't need to be 'fast' it only needs to be 'fast enough' Smile

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 24 June 2008 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 14:20

Indeed, but to build a decent fast BC you need to not have NRSE.

You said FM needs 4 jets and DDL7 needs 3 jets, so the DDL7 is perfect. Fill the back 3*slot with jets and you're done. Nod

That's what I used in my last game as WM, rest were eny6 shields and weap were gatlings. Can't remember what design the enemy had ... will look later.

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 24 June 2008 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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What if you want 9 weapons on it? Or if you need the caps for something?

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the old WM in a Nubless game chestnut Wed, 25 June 2008 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Still at it?


By the time you realize how steep the curve is, you will be using five types of calculus to get to the market. You will then need three different calculators to perform what you once considered basic arithmetic.

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Re: the old WM in a Nubless game chestnut Mon, 30 June 2008 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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What do you mean?

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Mon, 30 June 2008 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 25 June 2008 01:32

What if you want 9 weapons on it? Or if you need the caps for something?

Hm ... what if I want to read peoples minds? Or if I need to take my dog out for a walk on the moon? Hardest part would be that I don't have a dog ...

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Mon, 30 June 2008 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Micha wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 15:01

magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 24 June 2008 14:20

Indeed, but to build a decent fast BC you need to not have NRSE.

You said FM needs 4 jets and DDL7 needs 3 jets, so the DDL7 is perfect. Fill the back 3*slot with jets and you're done. Nod

That's what I used in my last game as WM, rest were eny6 shields and weap were gatlings. Can't remember what design the enemy had ... will look later.

Had a look, fighting multiple enemies, one had bazoka CCs (2*3 baz, rest cow shields), another had jihad CCs, third one didn't had warships at that time ... I think most fighting they did was vs the jihad CCs.

Design as warship was soon replaced by horde style BBs, DDL7, eny10 shields, 6 eny caps, 16 weap14 blasters and jets up front. Of the +/-50 BCs build half of them lasted till the end (2489), first as skirmisers, later as heavy sweepers vs one of the SDs in the game (transferred to my ally to make ship design room).

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 01 July 2008 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Please do not mock me. It's frustrating.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 01 July 2008 06:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 17:55

Please do not mock me. It's frustrating.
?

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 01 July 2008 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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He wasnt mocking you just pointing out that one answer will not meet all situations particularly situations that are not expected.

I can answer your "What if I want 9 weapons" question with - you dont want 9 weapons its sub optimal.

(I dont have precise figures as no stars on this PC but..)

A 6 weap with DLL and 3 jets will have a "Move" cost of 2 engines (24res?) plus 3 jets (15?)
Vs a 9 weap with IS10 "Move" cost of 120res

So you will be able to build more 6 weaps for the same cost. More = more sheilds, more Dp.
And in doing damage although each ship will do less damage there will be more so for a same cost they will only do slightly less damage (also as each one lost will be a smaller decrease in firepower the amount of damage they do compared to the 9 weap stack will increase each turn).

And the final bonus - the ships with the DLL can be built significantly earlier due to you not needing to research prop12.

I know what ships I will be building the next time I am a WM



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Tue, 01 July 2008 07:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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joseph wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:10

... A 6 weap with DLL and 3 jets will have a "Move" cost of 2 engines (24res?) plus 3 jets (15?)
Vs a 9 weap with IS10 "Move" cost of 120res ...

Agree with a lot of that, except m9m was talking about using ramscoops.

Then there is the question of race design (6 LRTs means IFE and NRSE 'give' you ~27pts vs P cheap and 4 LRTs//5 LRTs means IFE and NRSE 'give' you ~51pts vs P cheap and 3 LRTs).

Not to mention the opportunity cost of building warships early vs the cost of researching cheap, light scoops ... and then building warships.

bah ... all too hard. I'll just take IFE/NRSE so I don't have to think about it all. Smile


[Updated on: Tue, 01 July 2008 07:13]

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 03 July 2008 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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As Soobie has so kindly pointed out, I am not advocating the use of IS-10s on BCs. I am advocating the use of TGFSs to free up another jet slot (and which goes Warp 9 without fuel tanks to boot!), which requires only Prop 9, not Prop 12 for the OT, or even 11. Hence with ramscoops, as a WM, you have to do *less* Prop research *yay*! And hence the utility of NRSE becomes highly suspect. And the inutility of CE also becomes suspect, to an extent, if you're using BCs in large numbers for much of the game.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Thu, 03 July 2008 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Im not saying you are wrong (indeed others agree with you from way back- http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=2 740&rid=256&S=25ba4d8935f0cc9961c3817fbe3e8753 )

However Your TGFS is more expensive than my DDL (about 20Vs12) and I get to build at prop5 Vs your prop9.
So still earlier and cheaper and if you stick to your 9weapons then you will have greater firepower (78greater if Baz) but I will have greater shields (120 if Wolverine). Again meaning you will start to lose ships before I do.

Now if you use the slot gained by having one less jet to add an extra shield then the numbers get closer - your ships are more expensive but have better shields.
Although I could use the time you were researching from prop5 to 9 to do my research of Energy from 6 to 10 and then I have better shields than you again.



Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Fri, 04 July 2008 02:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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You've got a point on the 9 weapons thing, but the TGFS is a much better engine to get around than the DLL7, it's over 1.5 times as fast. If you're going to be doing any offense with the thing at all you need warp 9.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Fri, 04 July 2008 02:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 10:25

Please do not mock me. It's frustrating.

That was not my intention, I was trying to point out you were asking the "wrong" questions. You want an optimal design for the situation you are in, you don't try to focus on getting as many weap etc.

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Fri, 04 July 2008 03:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 08:07

You've got a point on the 9 weapons thing, but the TGFS is a much better engine to get around than the DLL7, it's over 1.5 times as fast.

Of course it's a "better" engine, it's higher in the tech tree. Wink But that means you spend more research in that area, have it later (as already pointed out), or that you have cheaper prop meaning less RW points to spend elswhere, and you already had less RW points to spend since you did not take NRSE ...
That all adds up, and for what did you give all that stuff up? (joking, not mocking) For *one* engine in order to use the 2*slot for jets instead of the 3*slots on your BCs that have a time frame of 10-15 years of use? Wink

Quote:

If you're going to be doing any offense with the thing at all you need warp 9.

DDL7 can go warp9. Wink Sure it sucks fuel, but you make sure your pop can keep up with your conquest and you have space docks following the front. Wink

mch

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sun, 06 July 2008 05:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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BCs have a time limit on their use of infinity. They're gatable, after all, and cheaper than nubs when the latter come out.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sun, 06 July 2008 05:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Adacore is currently offline Adacore

 
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The hull may remain useful, but are your mid-game tech ~14 weapons going to be at all relevant in the late game?

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sun, 06 July 2008 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 06 July 2008 11:07

BCs have a time limit on their use of infinity.

I'm not arguing against that, as you can read in one of my previous posts I used BCs (the one and only BC design I build in that game) till the end. However their purpose shifted: main warship -> hunter/skirmisher -> heavy sweeper (too slow and to weak to kill anything, and transferred to my ally so I could build *real* warships)
That said, the scout hull, FF and DD *also* have a time limit of infinity.

Quote:

They're gatable, after all, and cheaper than nubs when the latter come out.

They're also cheaper than BBs and DNs, but you don't keep using BCs once you have those available (and both those hulls you can keep "gate-able", except for missile variants of course).

mch


[Updated on: Sun, 20 July 2008 12:29]

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sat, 19 July 2008 03:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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I would never use BBs as a WM, but that's just me.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sat, 19 July 2008 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 19 July 2008 16:45

I would never use BBs as a WM, but that's just me.

Why not? What if your teamed up with a non-WM? Why not contemplate doubling the stack?

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sun, 20 July 2008 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Because a better idea would be to get him to give me mins, and build DNs instead Wink

You have a point.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Sun, 20 July 2008 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
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magic9mushroom wrote on Sun, 20 July 2008 07:41

Because a better idea would be to get him to give me mins, and build DNs instead ;)


Let me quote from one of the best and funniest articles about Warmongers:

War Mongering 101 by Darrend Brown

There are dangers to becoming a War Monger. The biggest is that you'll start to lose your sense of imagination. One of the first warning signs is when the natural conclusion to all conversations seems to be the same. Whether you're talking about when to colonize -8% yellows, or who should win Best Actress at the Oscars, if you find yourself thinking "Yes, but I have Dreadnoughts," and thinking it with finality, then you're in trouble.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Mon, 21 July 2008 03:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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I've read that. I don't generally play WM, more of an AR person.

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Re: WM in a Nubless game? Mon, 21 July 2008 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Interesting WM article by Darrend, but he completely fails to note the use of Chaff, which is a huge oversight. One of the results in the article is his near obsession with Jammers. I seldom use Jammers as I prefer simply to bring enough chaff to absored 2-3 rounds of missile fire and expect that I can reach the missile boats by then and take them out with my Capacitor charged beamers. Sometimes this doesn't work because my enemy has more missiles or more Beamers than I planned for, but still chaff are a vital part of modern Stars warfare.

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