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Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 09:02

I currently have an good looking game, with me having techs 14/16/12/16/15/17 and 20 k resources in 2540, with the best AI 70 k resources and max or near max tech, at least AMP Nubs. And that was with a lucky draw of green planets.

Sounds like fun! I used to face that kind of odds when my "best" racedesign was still 99% the Humanoids.

Still, that poor AI can consider itself toast.

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[Updated on: Thu, 22 February 2007 06:13]

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 09:45

Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 09:02 I currently have an good looking game, with me having techs 14/16/12/16/15/17 and 20 k resources in 2540, with the best AI 70 k resources and max or near max tech, at least AMP Nubs. And that was with a lucky draw of green planets. Sounds like fun! I used to face that kind of odds when my "best" racedesign was still 99% the Humanoids. Still, that poor AI can consider itself toast.

I would not bet on this, as his stream of nubs is unbroken, i'll need 20 additional years till offense is possible and that offense will be very slow.
And this will leave the cybertrons AI 200 LY south undisturbed and he has not yet started firing big w 16 packets, but will get the tech soon.
And i think there is still a macinti AI with 30 k far away - do they now about mineral fountains and distribution of minerals?

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Carn wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 12:23

I would not bet on this, as his stream of nubs is unbroken, i'll need 20 additional years till offense is possible and that offense will be very slow.

Hhmm, I wonder just how big those Nub fleets actually are. And their exact design, just in case...

But you shouldn't need magic to defeat them at all. I bet those streams are nearly always attacking the same planets of yours, so you should be able to concentrate in defending those spots while the rest of your empire grows. The AI will have a hard time figuring out why it cannot knock down your fully-Armageddoned Ultrastations, or why its fleets are often smashing against your minefields and losing most support ships.

AIs know nothing about chaff, and little about deflectors and/or shields vs armor or combined arms attacks...

So its minerals will peter out, while you grab all the scraps...

Quote:

And this will leave the cybertrons AI 200 LY south undisturbed and he has not yet started firing big w 16 packets, but will get the tech soon.

The PP AI will hardly have the econ to keep a sustained packeting campaign against anything farther than a few hundred lys. Or the wit to stop packeting fully-defended planets where its efforts do little damage. Or to spot your packet-catching freighters...

Quote:

And i think there is still a macinti AI with 30 k far away - do they now about mineral fountains and distribution of minerals?

Not at all. The don't even know how to use gates or to evacuate their fragile pop before their DeathStars burst.

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

Hhmm, I wonder just how big those Nub fleets actually are. And their exact design, just in case...

The actual fleet is normally just 1-5, but every turn 3-8 fleets attack.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

I bet those streams are nearly always attacking the same planets of yours, so you should be able to concentrate in defending those spots while the rest of your empire grows.

Good thing, i did that for 60 years, but now my 10 planets are around 80% so growing happens no longer.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

The AI will have a hard time figuring out why it cannot knock down your fully-Armageddoned Ultrastations, or why its fleets are often smashing against your minefields and losing most support ships.

3 times it saved me, that the AI lost its bombers on the way and his 20 BBs or Nubs orbited around my HW with nothing to do.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

AIs know nothing about chaff, and little about deflectors and/or shields vs armor or combined arms attacks...

Yes, but i'm worried that the 800 kt of iron lost per turn in chaff will have an effect with just 20 planets to mine.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

So its minerals will peter out, while you grab all the scraps...

Yes, that is my plan, which will fail, if the AR AI just happens by chance to build a few miners and send them to his HW.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

Quote: And this will leave the cybertrons AI 200 LY south undisturbed and he has not yet started firing big w 16 packets, but will get the tech soon. The PP AI will hardly have the econ to keep a sustained packeting campaign against anything farther than a few hundred lys.

Problem is, that his closest planet has 4 of my 10 planets in 250 LY and the rest in 400 LY.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

Or the wit to stop packeting fully-defended planets where its efforts do little damage. Or to spot your packet-catching freighters...

For my freighters to catch, thay have to move fast(slow or stationary ones will be attacked by nubs) and for movement there shoudn't be enemy mine fields. And for no enemy mine fields, there need be sweepers, but sweepers will hinder own minefield detonation and will cause nubs to go for different targets and maybe different worlds, which is worrysome with w8 jugger BBs as defensive fleet, they need 3 years to relocate if focus of attack shifts due to nubs hunting sweepers.

The same problem of shifting focus of AI occurs if i go for attack, so i'm waiting to build a fleet of w10 jugger BBs so i can clear a few close enemy planets.

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 13:36

Quote: And i think there is still a macinti AI with 30 k far away - do they now about mineral fountains and distribution of minerals? Not at all. The don't even know how to use gates or to evacuate their fragile pop before their DeathStars burst.

They do not relocate minerals?
Now that is realy stupid.
Do any AIs have mineral alchemy?

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Well, it seems you're in a tight spot, slowly being rolled on by superior numbers.

I gather your empire is too small, and you're entirely too close to that murderous PP AI.

I've never seen the AR AI launch a serious attack, or at least never worse than the HE AI. And yes, their HWs tend to harbor incredible mineral piles.

I'd suggest some last ditch strats, tho:

cloaked, mobile minelayers
cloaked packet-stealing freighters
cheap, light beamers + chaff galore against the AI's Missiles.
ambush lone hi-tech ships often to try and gather new techlevels off the AI.
refuse battle if you won't get the mineral scraps
next time, expand more.

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 16:05

I've never seen the AR AI launch a serious attack, or at least never worse than the HE AI. And yes, their HWs tend to harbor incredible mineral piles.

Plan for myself:
-find AR AI HW
-Fleet + sweeper + minelayer + 10000 chaff + robo miner + many LFs go there through 400 LYs enemy territory
- destroy armed and starbase there
- empty planet
- go home
- repeat every 50 years

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 22 February 2007 16:05

I'd suggest some last ditch strats, tho: cloaked, mobile minelayers cloaked packet-stealing freighters cheap, light beamers + chaff galore against the AI's Missiles. ambush lone hi-tech ships often to try and gather new techlevels off the AI. refuse battle if you won't get the mineral scraps next time, expand more.

Maybe you overread, but i play with primitive restrictions.
That is at best 1900 points left , 8 % pgr, 1 immune, 1in3, econ 12/25/15/no/12/15/15, tech 3, prop normal, we exp, only 100/250 gate allowed.
I play with 6% growth, so faster expansion might be possible but not much and at a high price for other things.

{Mod edit: fixed quote}

[Updated on: Fri, 23 February 2007 05:36] by Moderator

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Carn wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:13

Maybe you overread, but i play with primitive restrictions. That is at best 1900 points left , 8 % pgr, 1 immune, 1in3, econ 12/25/15/no/12/15/15, tech 3, prop normal, we exp, only 100/250 gate allowed. I play with 6% growth, so faster expansion might be possible but not much and at a high price for other things.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said "last ditch" and "next time", because your econ is surely not up to par, and unless "creative" tactics like the ones I outlined save your bacon, you'll be very likely rolled over.

I wonder if TT is allowed in the race mix? I read some articles where it wasn't.

At any rate, I intend to make a try myself, but I'll start in a Medium with just one AI until I get the hang of it.

Can you point me to any comprehensive articles on "primitive stars" or even to the original JC article itself?

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Carn wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:13

Plan for myself: -find AR AI HW -Fleet + sweeper + minelayer + 10000 chaff + robo miner + many LFs go there through 400 LYs enemy territory - destroy armed and starbase there - empty planet - go home - repeat every 50 years

Easier alternative (and potentially even more devastating for the AIs):

-- Kill a lone ship in space near one of your border planets, if possible inside a minefield of yours, and if possible not very far from one or several AI planets.

-- Ambush the AI freighters/Galleons that are sure to come if the salvage takes long to disappear.

-- Grab the minerals, but leave enough salvage lying around to keep the AIs interested in getting it.

-- Keep reinforcing your ambushers, because 200+ Arm Galleons/metamorphs can take some firepower to beat at once.

-- Presto! Mineral Fountain (with possible tech gain) at a place near you.

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:59] Carn wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:13 Maybe you overread, but i play with primitive restrictions. That is at best 1900 points left , 8 % pgr, 1 immune, 1in3, econ 12/25/15/no/12/15/15, tech 3, prop normal, we exp, only 100/250 gate allowed. I play with 6% growth, so faster expansion might be possible but not much and at a high price for other things. Yeah, I know. That's why I said "last ditch" and "next time", because your econ is surely not up to par, and unless "creative" tactics like the ones I outlined save your bacon, you'll be very likely rolled over.

I still have hope.

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:59] I wonder if TT is allowed in the race mix? I read some articles where it wasn't.

In primitive yes, but older Dark Ages rules disallowed. Is quite useful, as game last long.

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:59] At any rate, I intend to make a try myself, but I'll start in a Medium with just one AI until I get the hang of it.

Don't!!!!!!
Even when you select computer players can ally, they spend a lot time fighting each other, as they avoid allying, as long as human is weak.
Against robotoid AI alone, i would guess, winning is realy impoosible.

Alternatively you can try one of the broken AIs(not macinti, robotoid cybertrons) as they are very slow due to broken colonising and attack routines.

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 11:59] Can you point me to any comprehensive articles on "primitive stars" or even to the original JC article itself?

This are the limitations:
http://wiki.gible.net/index.php?title=Primitive_Stars%21

There was a game called Dark Ages(just search new game announcements and game stories), which had slightly different rules(no TT, no gates, but fac cost 15 and mine cost 10, so early on easier later more difficult), just search for "Dark Ages"

I think there was only 1 other primitive game so far and i'm the only nuthead i know about to play it against the AI.

PRTs, from in my eyes best to worst:

SD can fend off any attack till 2460-70 with exploding minefields. Then he needs skill and luck to get the B-52 bombers a few times before the BBs clear everything towards the target world. That might give enough time to face the AI beamer nubs with jihad/jugger BBs, chaff and enrgy damper(!!!!!!!) - thats what i'm currently doing and it might work.
Most starting minerals go to first 3 scouts and then standard mine layers, deny AI access to as many greens as possible. Unless planets are not far in the minefield always detonate, as even one lucky AI colonizer(of the dozens he'll send with w9) getting to a planet might mean, you have to pop drop it, as bomber cannot get there, because then explosions would have to be stopped for several years.
Use mine layer hulls for transport and colonizing.

WM starts we6 and might get BC before AI gets capital missles and BBs and therefore can fight early on. Then he needs to get a lucky draw in tech gamble, something like 10 times we in 10 turns, and then he might win.
Here it is a possible tactic to build from turm 3 or 4 40-60 scouts with phaser and send them to all nearby planets. They are speed 1.25 so will get most of the AI colonizers, which at least with my feeling slows the AI apporach and avoids pop dropping for several years.

As AR does not face the horrendous fac and mine costs(ARM menas mines 11 early and with con cheap mines will quickly be 6 or 7), but is more productive than -f(which is pretty mad with mines 15 anyway) he is pretty much a quickstart compared to the other PRTs. But the lack of any warfighting advantage might negate this. My tries so far didn't look that bad, i got to we 6 before enemies attacked.

SS has a nice early tech boost due to spying(i got once 8,3,7,8,5,4) before war starts, but points are not plenty and we tech is the last the AI research, so its a bit luck whether decent weapons(=

[Updated on: Fri, 23 February 2007 07:31]

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Carn wrote on Fri, 23 February 2007 13:25

Don't!!!!!! Even when you select computer players can ally, they spend a lot time fighting each other, as they avoid allying, as long as human is weak. Against robotoid AI alone, i would guess, winning is realy impoosible.

Hhmm, I guess I'll need to start with a PGR of at least 12% to get things "rolling" and see how the rest of restrictions pan out.

Quote:

This are the limitations: http://wiki.gible.net/index.php?title=Primitive_Stars%21

Yep. I know that one. I was hoping for a chance to re-read JC's analysis for all the restrictions, which I seem to have forgotten & filed (if at all) out of reach.

Quote:

There was a game called Dark Ages(just search new game announcements and game stories), which had slightly different rules(no TT, no gates, but fac cost 15 and mine cost 10, so early on easier later more difficult), just search for "Dark Ages"

Phew. I think I'll try the "difficult" before attempting the "impossible"

Quote:

I think there was only 1 other primitive game so far and i'm the only nuthead i know about to play it against the AI.

Well, it does seem a novel way of having a decent challenge against the AIs.

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