ken-reed wrote on Wed, 31 January 2007 04:04

However, how to code it simply is a real problem (one of my design objectives is that Nova should be simple to understand and work with).

What, with Stars! math?

It can be complicated and yet easy to understand as long as it's well-commented and kept in bite-size sections.

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Well, I've got a SourceForge account but it won't let me do anything just yet. To be fair, it does say that up to 24 hours are needed before an account is fully activated.

I'll check tomorrow but the project name is stars-nova. Once I get things set up, I'll be after details of the "contributers!"

[Updated on: Wed, 31 January 2007 14:02]

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Quote:

What, with Stars! math? It can be complicated and yet easy to understand as long as it's well-commented and kept in bite-size sections.

In the UK we call it maths (with an "s") The Stars! maths are not hard ... just basic algebra (if you want "hard" try working with tensors, grad, diff and curl and all that)

I think we should be OK.

Regards

Ken

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ken-reed wrote on Thu, 01 February 2007 08:17

In the UK we call it maths (with an "s") The Stars! maths are not hard ... just basic algebra (if you want "hard" try working with tensors, grad, diff and curl and all that)

This is why Stars! needs to be rebuilt in 3D with newtonian physics

[Updated on: Thu, 01 February 2007 04:53]

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This is why Stars! needs to be rebuilt in 3D with newtonian physics

One day, but not just yet Let's get the 2D version working first. CraigStars is thinking about the 3D side of things (he's using directX rather than GDI+). There are lots of options but 3D is just too hard for me

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[Updated on: Thu, 01 February 2007 16:01]

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Wow . . . quite a few posts for this thread for not being up too long. I guess a lot of people were thinking the same thing I was . . .

I’ve been busy the last few days getting stuff done around here (and Hardheads started up), but I have a bit of free time now.

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I don't mean to sound rude here but if you want option 3 instead you should probably GTFO and work on a different project

Unity
While there are some things I disagree with Coyote about, I absolutely feel he’s right on this:

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We need to keep a focus on the project and what we want it to be. We've basically got three different paths available and we need to all be pulling in the same direction. 1. Stars! 3, with improvements and significant new material but still undeniably Stars! 2. Clone of 2.6jrc3, with non-gameplay improvements (UI, graphics) 3. A brand new game that borrows from Stars! but is fundamentally different.

I think he’s touched one of the most important things I discussed in my first post:

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3. What can we learn from the past to prevent the mistakes, disagreements, and other problems that contributed to disunity?

m.a@stars said:

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I vote (2), with (1) a long-term goal.

And then, Coyote followed up again with:

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If most of you agree to simply clone 2.6jrc3 exactly, well, then it'll be an identical tech list. But ultimately, that's boring to me. I want more!

And my opinion? I think I’d fall pretty well into the third category? Do I want to see something fundamentally different? I guess that kind of depends. I think a lot of people have different views of what defines Stars! on a fundamental level. To me, Stars! is a game about strategic movement, placing your assets carefully, outthinking your opponent, building up colonies and warships, design and counterdesign, and developing a unique race that takes on specific qualities that get as close as possible to how the player wants to play. I think the exact way these things appear in the game, or the form they take, are more surface issues. If you change a rook in chess so it looks like a skyscraper and the knight into a tank, have you changed it fundamentally? Not in my opinion.

All that said, I’ve played a lot of different games over the years, and truth be told, I think Stars! lacks a lot. It’s good, but not perfect by any means.

So, already we’re hearing different voices, each pulling in different directions. I’m not saying this is a bad thing—I knew it would happen, and that we’d need to work around it. So, how do we do that?

I think my path is clear. In spite of what I’d like to see in Stars!, I will sacrifice it, because what we need now is unity. We need a set path, and so here is what I propose so we can move forward:

Where To?
First, I think we’ve all pretty much decided that Nova is what we want to use to make the new Stars! Still, we should keep our options open, so I’d like to send messages to some of the developers for the other Stars! clones, to see if they’d like to join. Perhaps Nova could also benefit from some additions in regard to code from those games.

Next, I propose a three-step development process. We try to get Nova advanced as far along as we can. At some point soon we get it to where it’s pretty much bug free, but not really a Stars! clone. Then, the majority of the team develops it along the lines of Stars! 3, with significant improvements but still undeniably Stars! If a few people want to they could work on turning it into an exact replica to the original. At some point in the future—3 to 12 months perhaps—we release a nice fleshed-out, user friendly Nova. At some point after that, maybe two years from now, we can work on making bigger changes to Stars! that some people might consider to be fundamental.

Graphics
Now, regarding graphics, I’m fairly opinionated.

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I do think that apart from simplicity and complexity (need both) the clone should have graphics, and LOTS of it. Look at any and all new indi games. They are all full of eye candy, and that's the only thing that will get people interested. Take my idea for a hull designer/tech browser, it's a start. We should move away from the stars! GUI and make something new and and not so windowsey (don't think that's a word but meh) Things that would help is being able to install "skins" like on winamp and media player. Or even Themes like on desktops and cell phones. Make it so that people can customize thier stars! experience. But that's all for later

I like graphics, but time and again I have seen games focus on graphics heavily at the expense of gameplay and other such important aspects. As long as we don’t carried away we should be fine.

Finally, what did everyone think about the idea I had for the Stars! Revival? I think some sort of a plot would definitely make the game more interesting.

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So Iconian, it sounds heavily to me like you're in Category 1!
You want to build Stars! 3, and have it be Stars! in essence.
As you say, it doesn't matter what something is called or looks like that defines it, what's important is how it behaves and what its nature is.

It's difficult for me to explain exactly what I mean by keeping the essence the same, but I think we're on the same page here... you wouldn't want to turn it into some mutant RTS or first-person adventure game, and you wouldn't want to throw in something that would break the game or make it completely different while preserving the appearance. Now if I have to define something specific as far as "essence", well, - Stars! has player-designed races that give a multitude of options and various distinct advantages and disadvantages, and demand different approaches to play effectively. It has a turn-based engine with a predictable and specific order of events. It has planets, ships, fleets, research fields, et cetera. It has a battle engine that resolves battles between turns, using predictable and specific rules. And so on and so forth... there's a lot more you could add to this. What's important is to have it keep the things that make Stars! fun to play -- the scheming and plotting, waiting for your research to finish so you can start building your frigate swarm, hunting for a habitable planet and trying to grab it first, spending all day desperately hoping that your meager forces can somehow hold off the juggernaut fleet headed at your core worlds, so on and so forth.

Regarding graphics:
Personally, I feel that graphics are mostly irrelevant. I like the FreeStars! tech item graphics allright, except for the shields. I'm fine with them looking completely different, or very close to the old Stars! graphics, or cartoonish, or Victorian English baroque, or having no graphic at all, or having a photo-quality rotating 3d animation, or whatever people feel is worth the effort. I'm not okay with having graphics development get in the way of actual progress, or spending money on graphics, or any such thing.
However, some things I'd like to see in the graphics area are a unique visual style of ship for each player, choosable at race design and able to use cutom content. I think somebody was working on this. Also, player badges should be able to use custom content.

[Updated on: Sat, 03 February 2007 02:18]

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[Updated on: Sat, 03 February 2007 06:06]

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ken-reed wrote on Sat, 03 February 2007 11:47

(and eliminate some of the major Stars! bugs - I hate how impossible it is to intercept hit-and-run tactics).

You mean there's some kind of "new" bug involved in those somehow?

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[Updated on: Sat, 03 February 2007 08:46]

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Hey Ken,

I grabbed the Feb 2nd build the other day and got it up and running to see what you've done. It took me a bit of remembering to get it all working. You might want to post a quick how-to get started list on here or on your website. As far as I know, this is what you do:

1. Run the race wizard, save it to a game dir.
2. Run the console, point it at a game dir.
3. Select New game on the console
4. Run the client
5. Execute client commands.
6. Close the client.
7. Generate a turn on the console.
8. Run the client again.

and repeat steps 5 through 8....

And don't forget to build a starbase on your homeworld so you can build ships!

Other than figuring out how to get started, the latest build is a lot more functional from a starter perspective. Very nice. Oh yeah, and it also runs on Vista, in case you were worried.

-Craig

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simple design + fast paced game + infinite role-play options +
small size + immense galactic activity + easily adjustable strategic options = Stars!

no fancy stuff makes a good game, only a fine addition.

Stars would be great with more differences in races, like different tech trees and graphics, but the core of the game is still and that's most important.

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Small, simple ruleset, very nicely balanced.

Rock-paper-scissors for practically everything.

Mostly predictable but far from certain options (avoid boredom)

Enough playfield size to make deep strategy truly possible.

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[Updated on: Sat, 03 February 2007 22:28]

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Quote:

I grabbed the Feb 2nd build the other day and got it up and running to see what you've done. It took me a bit of remembering to get it all working. You might want to post a quick how-to get started list on here or on your website. As far as I know, this is what you do: 1. Run the race wizard, save it to a game dir. 2. Run the console, point it at a game dir. 3. Select New game on the console 4. Run the client 5. Execute client commands. 6. Close the client. 7. Generate a turn on the console. 8. Run the client again. and repeat steps 5 through 8.... And don't forget to build a starbase on your homeworld so you can build ships! Other than figuring out how to get started, the latest build is a lot more functional from a starter perspective. Very nice. Oh yeah, and it also runs on Vista, in case you were worried.

Yes, exactly right. If you look in the project documentation folder you should find (perhaps not very good) instructions to the same effect (see BasicInstructions.aspx). With your permission, I'll tag your post on to the end of that page. You seem to be able to describe things in a "nutshell" better than I can

I'll also add your post to the Nova homepage (again, with your permision).

Many thanks for your help. It is most appreciated.

Ken

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Visual Studio Express Ok, I assume this is what you're talking about, ken? If so, I'm a little worried . . . I'd rather not spend x hours downloading a 500 megabyte program, only to find that it won't run on my Windows 2000 Professional 448 mhz 128 ram Pentium. It says it requires "Windows 2003 Server," and I don't think I have that either

It runs fine under XP which is what I have. Your machine sounds a bit slow to run it, though. I didn't download it. I got my copy off one of the free CD's that are stuck to various computer magazines

I didn't want anyone to have to fork out money to work with Nova and the choice seemed to be between the GNU compiler and VS Express. VS Express is better so that's the one I picked.

You might be able to use it on a 448MHz machine but I don't think so ... my 1GHz beast struggles a bit at times.

As a friend said to me just recently ... life is short .. treat yourself now and then (i.e. buy a new base unit, the cost is about $300 (rough conversion, they are about £200 in the UK) if you don't upgrade your monitor, etc.).

Regards

Ken

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[Updated on: Sun, 04 February 2007 12:35]

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Coyote wrote on Sun, 04 February 2007 18:32

There's no reason we can't make a scenario generator that can change the shape, size, density, and starting positions in the galaxy, allow a much richer selection of victory conditions (eg; have colonists on planet Foo on turn 2571 OR control at least one gift ship from the MT AND have the most Galleons...), have the ability to set different victory conditions for different players, and add universal starting conditions for each race such as number of initial planets, ships, and tech levels, starting minerals, etcetera.

Funny you should mention that, as I've been building something very much like this for the past few months, including "normal" as well as "globular" and "spiral" galaxies.

I'm outputting just the XY file and one "main" Planet Report (both plaintext for easy interfacing) and am working on adding the initial ships and a "clumping" generator.

Thing is, I've been thinking along the lines of allowing more than one HW, more than one secondary world, and generally reading initial values for as many things as possible instead of having them set in stone.

Victory Conditions, however, are quite a different thing, as they need to be checked at turn-generation time.

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ken-reed wrote on Sat, 03 February 2007 23:37

I'll also add your post to the Nova homepage (again, with your permision).

Please, add away!

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