Home » Primary Racial Traits » HE » Meta-morph
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06   |
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 mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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1) no gates without diplomacy
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I don't see the issue here. Apparently, nearly everyone eles feels this way, but it has never stopped me.
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2) a race who's planets are half sized
3) therefore, a race who needs 2x as many worlds
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This argument has always made me laugh. Only an HP can claim this sort argument, and it's hollow. A *normal* race won't have the planetary density that a tri-immune HE will have. A tri-immune can inhabit all worlds, therefore doesn't need as much space. If it is careful, this is quite powerful. With such a compact empire, no gates is only a hindrence.
I'm not sure what your are assuming for a race design, but my normal HG gets 2420 resources per/ 100% planet. My normal HE gets 2600...on *all* planets. I guarentee if I am doing well, that HG is spreadout all over. The HE needs only a *fraction* of that space, as all planets are 100%. 100% means that even without gates, your planets are closer togetehr and easier to defend.
I can go further here, and try to explain that an HE will probably own more planets than the HG and HP's, HP's that means buffer...The last Huge I played an HE in, I was losing 1.5 planets/turn on one front, but gaining 3 per turn on the other front. Eventually, I was able to shift fleets, build enough reinforcements to stop the 3 races attacking me, while simotaneously absorbing a 2 other players. So, I don't see a problem with own 2x the planets.
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4) which leads to: a race who will need to annoy neighbors by taking more worlds
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Neighbors go after an HE because they are powerful if left alone. If the HE is grabbing that many worlds, it is a non standard, high growth HE. <shrug> the same is true with other races, like HP vs -f...
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5) making diplomacy harder
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This ties into the other assumptions. Have you ever played a 4-5% tri-immune HE?
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6) a race that can be crippled easily early by limiting it's growth
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Now that is the first thing you have said that I agree with.
...
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 12:39 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| mlaub wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06 |
A tri-immune can inhabit all worlds, therefore doesn't need as much space.
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I did say 'worlds' and not 'space'.
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06 |
I'm not sure what your are assuming for a race design.
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I go for speed (two games with wars at or before 2410, I'd better go for speed). Probably QS or HG. Although one of those races was a fast HP (1/1000 with HP factories, and terrible research - I won't do that again).
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06 |
The last Huge I played an HE
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Ahh, this is the difference. I won't play in a Huge, and even a Large is questionable. Small or Medium is my territory.
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06 |
Neighbors go after an HE because they are powerful if left alone.
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True, like AR and HP races, they are very weak early and stronger later, so kill em now I say.
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06 |
This ties into the other assumptions. Have you ever played a 4-5% tri-immune HE?
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Too slow for my style of play. I have played them in that that's the HE race for the demo game.
| mlaub wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 12:06 |
Interested in a duel?
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I should try a duel some time. However, right now I have no time for the things I've already commited to, let alone new things.
...
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 14:04 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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>A tri-immune can inhabit all worlds, therefore doesn't need as much space.
I did say 'worlds' and not 'space'.
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Yes, but it means essentially the same thing. The tri-immunes actually put less pressure on neighbors, since all worlds are 100%. So, even with 2x the planets, it is *way* different then a 1 in 4 race. A comparison is tough on that basis.
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>The last Huge I played an HE
Ahh, this is the difference. I won't play in a Huge, and even a Large is questionable. Small or Medium is my territory.
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<shrug>... Fine. For comparison sake, the last medium (sparse, 6 players) I played in, I played a modified tri-immune HE. I had a CA TT and a -f SD as neighbors. I won that game, too (very difficult). Both those players I'd rank in the top 5 Stars! players I've ever played against. I had a tiny empire compared to both of them, from the start. The difference is that the 20 worlds I was able to grab and hold, were 100% worlds. I didn't fight over worlds that were green to them, at first.
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True, like AR and HP races, they are very weak early and stronger later, so kill em now I say.
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If we are talking 1 on 1, that's easier said, then done. A huge benefit to the Tri-immune HE's is that it is easy to defend solely with SB's for quite some time.
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Too slow for my style of play. I have played them in that that's the HE race for the demo game.
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The "Silicoids", or whatever, is a absolute travesty of a decent HE design. If you are basing everything off of *that* design, it's no wonder you think they a pathetic. 
-Matt
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Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 15:23 |
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| LEit wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 07:33 |
The Meta-
2) a race who's planets are half sized
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Are you 100% hab on all your worlds? If not, how can you call a 3I HE 'half sized'?
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4) which leads to: a race who will need to annoy neighbors by taking more worlds
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In the case of a 3I - If you let your neighbours have the greens in return for their reds?
Or in the case of a non-immune, good luck trying in the beginning. A proper designed and played HE can out grow you and eat you alive in the beginning, similar to a -f.
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6) a race that can be crippled easily early by limiting it's growth
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True of ANY race.
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I started a war with them by 2410.
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Good luck spotting the HE by then. HE can planet hop well and have a few small freighters for show. Orbital forts and better can be well organised for defensive suprises. Scouts can be stopped with x-ray man-jet destroyers.
In my current game, my early HE was probably stronger defensively in the beginning than any other race. I had minefields starting 2420, and my planets were all organised for either strong defence or quick abandonment.
Not everybody is eager to attack big unknowns early in the game.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 17:20 |
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| Sotek |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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I never claimed the cruiser was better ship-for-ship.
On the other hand, the highly-cloaked meta *isn't* on par with cruisers on a cost-effectiveness basis, discounting the advantage of stealth.
That is, once a battle happens, equal cost of cloaked metas and normal cruisers, the normal cruisers decimate the cloaked metas. Not equal numbers, equal cost.
And my chances are far, *far* better than 1 in 20 at catching your ships.
You've grouped to hit one of my worlds, correct?
That seems to me to be a reasonable assumption, otherwise I don't care about you; if you're not attacking, you're not hurting me at all.
So you've hit a world.
I can look where my worlds are in relationship to your fleet, which I know the precise location of; you *have* to be at the world you just killed my (probably relatively pathetic) starbase at.
You can only move 81ly as an upper max, because there is no way in hell you'll have warp 10 engines at this point; if you do, you've taken cheap prop and NRSE, or incredibly focused on prop research (with NRSE); that's going to hurt a lot to do; both in more expensive ships (rams are cheaper, after all), and in resources towards propulsion that could have been used elsewhere; I typically have prop 7-8 until into the BB era, and I don't think that's unusual at all.
And a much more plausible movement max is 16-36ly. Because I've been putting minefields down as part of my normal strategy for standard defense. Minefields buy time, and time is the most important thing you can *have*. Yes, you'll have been doing sweeping operations, but the amount of dent you can make in that respect is limited without draining a significant amount of your offensive capability, in one way or another; if only via telegraphing of your intentions.
Now, how many worlds do I have within 36 or so LY of the world you just hit?
It's not unreasonable to assume you'll only have one or two worlds you *can* reach with that fleet.
If I guess wrong and you're striking further in, then a year goes by whe
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 18:13 |
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I am a newbie. I am in a game. You assumptions tech wise are sometimes out to lunch, Sotek even for a newbie like me. Ever heard about lots of friends? And even an HE going it alone has some special tricks.
A properly designed HE has lots of things to share and without gates isn't feared as much as a backstabber.
I feared that everyone would gang on me. I made myself strong defensively.
What I found is I had too many friends and the challenge was trying to keep the friends on good terms with each other. They all love my germ, I give them nice green planets with factories Why should they attack for what I will trade? They don't need to build remote miners, I take care of the reds.
HE lost gates because the race dominated even when everyone else ganged up on it (in the hands of a good player). Like AR it is a special race that wants different tactics to be dangerous.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 18:29 |
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| Sotek wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 15:20 |
Yes, you'll have been doing sweeping operations, but the amount of dent you can make in that respect is limited without draining a significant amount of your offensive capability.
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My obsolete destroyers love ramming through and eating minefields. If nothing else, heavy cloakers can overcloak a few destroyers.
But why only cloaked forces? Normally an attack would be a mix of both cloaked and uncloaked, the cloakers are for extra suprises while the non cloakers do the hard fighting.
Budget non-cloaked Metamorph Jihads have twice the firepower of cruisers for less than twice the cost. Combined with a good set of beamers (more attractive than the Metas) and chaff they can be cost effective and act as transports as well if needed.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Wed, 21 January 2004 22:35 |
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| Sotek |
| Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002 | |
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If you have a cloaked and non-cloaked force operating together, that surprise only lasts for one turn.
Now, you have more flexibility, but if you exercise it, you also have sacrifices.
And even those DDs will have to broadcast your direction of planned motion (or it becomes a skirmish war, which is a whole topic in and of itself).
And yes, the assumptions I'm making are not always applicable.
However, in all the games I've played, prop has been one of the lower priorities for people.
I rarely see alliances of more than two people, and in the early game that tends to have one person focus on const and the other on weapons.
Propulsion is a low priority early-game, because other fields are more important. You need a significantly-sized alliance to have the flexibility to focus on that.
And of course, if you bring alliances into things, what's to say I don't have an alliance too, one that can come to my aid? (Again, through gates).
I'm relying on real-game experience of tech levels here. Besides, I will categorically state that no normal game will have the warp 10 ram before BBs, so even if we *do* assume warp 10 movement (Which is still only 100ly, which *still* isn't very many planets in range, especially early before good terra), we're talking about the IS10, and that hurts cost-effectiveness.
Yes, a metamorph can be a very powerful ship.
It is not the be-all and end-all of that era, however.
And HE is severely weakened by the lack of gates. Which is, yes, a required thing for balance.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 22 January 2004 00:12 |
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I am playing in a normal game. My main adversary, is a JOAT and he is now running around with Warp 10 engines, but no Battleships yet. He has friends, I have friends.
One of my friends has battleships. Whether I show warp 10 engines first or battleships, I will leave for later info (no need to give clues away to the enemy).
War involves misdirection, etc. I have been clearing minefields all over with my obsolete destroyers, not just where I want to attack, my destroyers ram in groups of 3 or 4 at warp 8 or 9 through the minefields.
My jihad metamorphs recently met his jihads cruisers in battle, he destroyed my chaff and gattling destroyers, but my jihad metamorphs are all undamaged and my starbase didn't get touched. His mighty cruiser beamers (colodial phaser and sapper) and cruiser jihads are all dead.
We are talking the two strongest powers in the game. As far as resources go you would consider me a major power in most games according to the numbers I have seen others quote, able to compete well with HG JOAT, etc.
I can get into more precise details when the game is over.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Thu, 22 January 2004 10:26 |
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| Steve1 |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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Only ever played HE once in a multi-player game and did quite well for most of the game, but I was up against a monster IS whom kicked my butt cause I couldn't get enough chaff to where it was needed on time.
I had as many warships and my warships IMO were better designed, but the shear volume of chaff he could get to any battle gradually took it's toll on my fleet.
I might point out too, that I had plenty of allies or races that I was on friendly terms with and most of them allowed me the use of their gates, but getting the chaff to the right location through the use of their gates was taking "at least" 3 years as opposed to it only taking one year for a race with gates (assuming that the 300/500 gates is enough to cover the distance).
Good fun race though.
The metamorphs are great.
Tri-immunity saves a whole heap of wasted time terraforming, not to mention that every planet is inhabitable.
Those Flux capacitors are wonderful and make a big difference on Nubs.
No wonder the makers took away the gates all those years ago !
Steve.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 23 January 2004 03:50 |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 23 January 2004 01:36 |
Hi!
Huh? HE with 5% growth gets at 2450 8.9M pop as a theoretical maximum with 10.0% growth. What I can manage in packed uni with a perfect pop management is about 9.3% (+- 0.1%), that yields about 6.4M pop. With 15/x/25 fac's (all built!) it would 30 4k.4k resources maximum. I usually manage to get 24k 24k.
So, a question to you: are you talking about the Stars! with the same rules the rest of us have to play with?
BR, Iztok
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The numbers are actually a little better than you suggest, I won't get into the details. There are also some other variations such as certain 6% 3i, 6% 2i, 7% 2i, etc that have interesting results as well.
And someone else pointed out how he got something like 50K with a -f HE monster. In a real game that would be a QS rather than HQ type race/style (going for early kills rather than monster size by 2450).
Lots of variations, I can't talk about mine till my game is over.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 23 January 2004 09:43 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| multilis wrote on Fri, 23 January 2004 09:50 |
The numbers are actually a little better than you suggest, I won't get into the details. There are also some other variations such as certain 6% 3i, 6% 2i, 7% 2i, etc that have interesting results as well.
And someone else pointed out how he got something like 50K with a -f HE monster. In a real game that would be a QS rather than HQ type race/style (going for early kills rather than monster size by 2450).
Lots of variations, I can't talk about mine till my game is over.
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I did quite some testbeds with HE when preparing for one speciall game with about 40 planets per player. Here are my tested designs with some comments. I didn't take NAS as I wanted to have sth. to trade. All tests were performed in the same tiny dense uni.
My basic 3-immune 5% HE design:
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HE
ISB, NRSE, OBRM, RS
pop: 1/1000
fac's: 15/9/23 NO g box
mines: 15/3/19
weap con en cheap; elec normal; prop bio expensive
Constantly gets about 25k res at 2450 in tiny packed, about 22k in dense. Slow until about 2435, then starts rolling. Great at 2460.
Variant 1: 6% 3-immune
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Differences to basic design:
fac's: 14/9/18 NO g box
mines: 12/3/18
weap con cheap; en normal; prop elec bio expensive
Quite better start (about 10.8% growth), but 20% less capacity and minerals. About 32k in dense. I'd recommend it in more competitive universe.
Variant 2:
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6% 2-immune, temp full width -1 click
Differences to basic design:
fac's: 15/9/21 NO g box
mines: 14/3/18
Only about 1/3 of starting planets are good breeders (over 90%). Still better start than 5-immune, but the same res at 2450. 20% worse at 2460 with average planet size 92%. I'd rather play with 5% race then with this.
Variant 3:
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7% 2-immune, temp full width -1 click
LSP
fac's: 12/9/17 NO g box
mines: 12/3/17
weap con cheap; en normal; prop elec bio expensive
Too much pop, hence LSP. Average growth in tiny dense was about 11.5% ('ve ru
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 23 January 2004 10:53 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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Caveat: I've lost an important battle in one game because in battlesim I got completely different result of a combat then in the game.
The main problem with Battlesim is it is working with maxed tech that makes costs (attractiveness) of ships quite different than in the game you are playing. To avoid it you have to make your own battlesim with the races you are playing against, and the tech levels you suspect they have.
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Oh, that's rather disapointing. I've been creating designs on the basis that I thought the result was an absolute. I suppose that given the same circumstances it is, but re-creating a battlesim with the same tech levels everytime is rather laborious.
You know what we need, is someone clever enough to work out how to build an accurate battlesim whereby you can specify your own tech levels and hazard a guess at the opponents tech levels (thereby potentially altering the attractiveness of chaff compared to other ships). My guess would be that this can't be done without the source code though.
Is there anyone with ideas or knowledge of how to get around this problem ???
- Steve
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| battle sim (Re: Meta-morph) |
Fri, 23 January 2004 10:59 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| Steve1 wrote on Fri, 23 January 2004 16:53 |
| Izotk wrote: |
Caveat: I've lost an important battle in one game because in battlesim I got completely different result of a combat then in the game.
The main problem with Battlesim is it is working with maxed tech that makes costs (attractiveness) of ships quite different than in the game you are playing. To avoid it you have to make your own battlesim with the races you are playing against, and the tech levels you suspect they have.
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Oh, that's rather disapointing. I've been creating designs on the basis that I thought the result was an absolute. I suppose that given the same circumstances it is, but re-creating a battlesim with the same tech levels everytime is rather laborious.
You know what we need, is someone clever enough to work out how to build an accurate battlesim whereby you can specify your own tech levels and hazard a guess at the opponents tech levels (thereby potentially altering the attractiveness of chaff compared to other ships). My guess would be that this can't be done without the source code though.
Is there anyone with ideas or knowledge of how to get around this problem ???
- Steve
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There's the Attractivenes Sheet, you should always input your designs into it, it gives the accurate attractiveness of all your designs. If it differs from the battle sim testbed than make a new sim.
I build a testbed for every almost every game I'm in, as soon as I know the PRT's and LRT's that matter, and trying to keep the tech levels as correct as possible (though that can be too much sometimes). Especially when I'm in team games where battle positions are another very important thing to check.
mch
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| Re: Battle simulator (Re: Meta-morph) |
Fri, 23 January 2004 11:09 |
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| Micha |
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 23 January 2004 16:11 |
Caveat: I've lost an important battle in one game because in battlesim I got completely different result of a combat then in the game.
The main problem with Battlesim is it is working with maxed tech that makes costs (attractiveness) of ships quite different than in the game you are playing.
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Yes, that can be a pain. 
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To avoid it you have to make your own battlesim with the races you are playing against, and the tech levels you suspect they have. In will make your combat simulations much more accurate, but will also make your playing much more demanding.
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Setting up the testbed is the most work, once that is done you only need to insert the new ship designs and keep the techs from getting too high. Ahum, well that "only" is enough work already. 
When games get more complicated I build my own testbed, especially in teamgames where next to the attractiveness there's the battle board positioning that matters more than usually in the other games. I only use the battle sim for some easy testing, like testing ship designs, not fleet designs ...
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And "everything perfect" style of play isn't also the funniest, that I can tell you from my own experience.
BR, Iztok
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Guess the Random Number God will punish such hubris with the outmost boredom!
mch
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 23 January 2004 11:13 |
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| Steve1 |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: January 2003
Location: Australia | |
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There's the Attractiveness Sheet, you should always input your designs into it, it gives the accurate attractiveness of all your designs. If it differs from the battle sim testbed than make a new sim.
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I've never got around to obtaining that, but it must be good because I've heard numerous players mention it.
Time to go a searching ........
- Steve
[Updated on: Fri, 23 January 2004 11:13] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Fri, 23 January 2004 16:16 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Quote: |
Oh, that's rather disapointing. I've been creating designs on the basis that I thought the result was an absolute. I suppose that given the same circumstances it is, but re-creating a battlesim with the same tech levels everytime is rather laborious.
Is there anyone with ideas or knowledge of how to get around this problem ???
- Steve
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Actually, the answer is really simple. Just design you ships with this in mind. So, when you design you beamers, missile/torp ships, and chaff, pay attention to the attractiveness. If the attractiveness of a design is too close to your chaff (eg .456 and .442, instead of .456 and .120) then you need to examine what miniturization will do to the attractiveness. There is also a slight random factor thrown in, so close is not good.
As a rule, the results won't change that much, unless the attractiveness is close. The biggest issues seem to involve frigate chaff. I use scout chaff for that reason. Another thing to plan for is having your Beamers more attractive than your missile ships. I would rather lose a pile of beamers, than a pile of missile ships, and ensuring that your attractiveness is correct on complementory designs can win wars.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Meta-morph |
Sun, 25 January 2004 06:15 |
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| Kotk | 
| Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 23 January 2004 10:36 |
Hi!
| Kotk wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 21:09: |
 Oh and since i am here then...
Other myth i keep hearing is that 5% 3-immune is slow. Not too slow. Not so slow as most HP-s. In testbed it gets up to 35K by 2450 and 60K at 2460. That with very cheap tech. In real game... let me see ... i got 27K and 55K. Not so slow. Quite playable. 
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Huh? HE with 5% growth gets at 2450 8.9M pop as a theoretical maximum with 10.0% growth. What I can manage in packed uni with a perfect pop management is about 9.3% (+- 0.1%), that yields about 6.4M pop.
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So ... I can make bit better "perfect" pop management. I just did tiny packed testbed where i got over 7M pop and have got even better. Need testbed file to verify i am not bullying you?
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With 15/x/25 fac's (all built!) it would get 30.4k resources maximum. I usually manage to get about 24k.
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Okay. So 7M pop with 15/8/25 factories gives 33.2K And so i got 33K. Is it difficult to build all fac's in testbed? I even have not testbedded HE much lately because i simply like AR, SS and IS more.
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So, a question to you: are you talking about the Stars! with the same rules the rest of us have to play with?
BR, Iztok
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Yeah... stars 2.7j rc3.
The real beauty of HE is not in the first 50 years, where 5% is strong enough. Yes you cannot get 35k and Jugger BBs in real game by 2450 like in packed testbed, but then again... who can anyway? JOATs, ITs and CAs but these are boring. It is the next 10 years that will usually turn the tables completely.
...
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What is initially possible to negotiate on diplo board is usually 'territory' not 'worlds'. From territory the 3i HE gets resources that are second best after the TT CA (if we leave other 3-immunes out as uplayable).
Even one from HE territory for two in neighbour territory is possible. 
