Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Radical Uses for the Destroyer
| Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 29 December 2006 16:35  |
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 Iconian |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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I’ve been doing some reading on a few Academy threads about different ship designs, and I thought I’d try my hand at a few designs I’ve used. First I’ll just talk about the ships, and then about using them practically.
The Ships Colonizers, freighters, scouts, and boosters are most important in the early game it seems. Small mistakes, or even inefficiencies, you make early on you’ll end up paying for years down the line. So I’ve focused on trying to find the best possibilities out there. After fair testing, I’d like to call attention to the destroyer. I think it’s a ship that is greatly overlooked that’s useful for a couple different functions beyond simple fighting. There are lots of designs you can make with it, but two designs I personally want to promote: one with a cargo pod and colony pod, which is good as a colonizer between Santa Maria and privateer (and also in a few other circumstances), and a destroyer with 2 fuel tanks, which is a fantastic booster. For the following I’m using the fuel mizer.
Let’s look at some basic stats (based on 3/3/4/3/3/3 techs).
Colony Ship
9i; 0b; 13g; 18r; 20kt; 200mg; 20dp; 25kt capacity
Privateer
50i; 3b; 2g; 50r; 65kt; 650mg; 150dp; 250kt capacity
Destroyer
15i; 3b; 5g; 35r; 35kt; 280mg; 200dp; 0kt capacity
Destroyer Colonizers
Most races need a lot of germanium early on to do well. The colony ship and medium freighter both use a fair amount of g, and so a lot of people stay away from them, instead going for the privateer. Before the privateer though, how about just going for the destroyer? The destroyer with colony pod and cargo pod, which I call “Colony DD” costs more iron and resources (and boranium) than your standard Santa Maria, but the Santa Maria is 22g, Colony DD 16g, so you’ll be able to make a few more factories for every Colony DD you build instead of a Santa Maria.
Besides that though, it has more fuel, twice the cargo, and ten times the Santa Maria armor. While unloaded the mg/kt ratio on the Colony DD is 3.84, but only 3.45 on the Santa Maria; though loaded it’s 2.28 and 2.41. If you only load it with 40kt instead of 50kt, the Colony DD gets a mg/kt of 2.48.
So, the Colony DD is a better deal than the Santa Maria if you’re looking at the g, and even you’re a –f you might want to use it—but think about how much it will take an enemy to kill a Colony DD compared to the Santa Maria. They’d have to have about 20 Alpha scouts, 7 Beta scouts, 6 Alpha DD’s, or 2 Beta DD’s to take down one Colony DD. Either way, you’ll be able to grow your economy a lot while they’re trying to take just one Colony DD down. So, put 40kt of colonists in the Colony DD and it will travel farther and faster than a Santa Maria, cost you less g, protect you colonists ten time better, and when it arrives you’ll have a colony 35% bigger than the competition. Every time I tested it, the destroyers also won in two-way races to colonize planets (does anyone know what criteria that’s based on?) To me, that’s certainly quite a deal.
How does it compare to the privateer? With 1 colony pod and 2 fuel tanks the privateer takes 11g, while the Colony DD takes 16g. The privateer’s loaded mg/kt is 3.97 to 2.28, so that’s also going to make it better than the Colony DD. But on the other hand, you’re going to be using a lot more resources and iron for each one, and you’ll also need to get to construction 4 instead of 3. Consider that the more resources and minerals you use in a colonizer ship, the more you’re going to lose in the end that are completely unrecoverable (this is also a good reason to avoid putting colony pods on large freighters unless it’s absolutely necessary—most of those resources and minerals are gone).
Destroyer Transports
For a transport, with 2 cargo pods, it’s really not good at all. Two of them together have less cargo and fuel than one medium freighter and they take about twice the iron and resources, though again they have more armor and use less g. Against a 3 fuel tank privateer it’s even worse: less iron
...
[Updated on: Fri, 29 December 2006 16:40]
Yeah, bread too.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 29 December 2006 18:25  |
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I have used red-laser booster DDs extensively. They make it a little easier to skip IFE, so races that have other reasons to skip it will do well to use the booster DD. Also, being armed means it can offer some modicum of protetion for your transports, or be used to intercept enemy transports and colonizers, or can help defend new colonies before they can throw a OF together. And if you're JoaT it's a double win.
[Updated on: Fri, 29 December 2006 18:26] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 29 December 2006 19:29 |
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| Kotk | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| Iconian wrote on Fri, 29 December 2006 23:35 |
All comments welcome.
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Destroyer colonizer:
Santa Maria is 27i/9b/22g/37r
DD colonizer is 38i/12b/16g/64r
So it costs almost twice more than Santa Maria in resources. So one can build 2 Santa Marias and one real DD for cost of 2 fakes. Most minerals are given back but no resources when colonizing. One rarely just colonizes there without immediately populating. In that light the majority of colony fleet (and biggest vulnerability of it) are Transport ships anyway.
Destroyer transport:
You are right, its pointless. 
Destroyer booster:
Destroyer is OK platform for booster. If its armed it can escort but usually does not prevent opponent from dropping the transports if he really wants to. Boosters are important part of fleet when IFE-less. With IFE one can temporarily use anything that is present for casual boosting, be the "booster" really meant as transport ships, scouts or escorts. It is little amount of fuel that matters there.
Practical Use:
On one hand you seem to worry about the armor of the ships a lot on other hand you suggest not to get into contact with opponents.  No one who is attacking is going after a fueler or colony ship, everyone are interested to get the transports down. 50kT or 25kT of colonists on ground are quite profitable to pop-drop on any case.
PRT-s and races:
HE ... uses mini-colonizers for booster, fuel and transport.
SS ... no one see that DD colonizer anyway so early unless in direct contact so why to waste resources? Sure, can boost with DD-s why not.
WM ... now WM certainly can both see the design and drop such a colonizers from early on. WM Santa Maria gets out of battle quite fine if WM is losing it.
CA ... its always banned, right. 
IS ... better to use fuel transport for booster. IS is early most worried to build enough cargo space because the bastards grow otw.
SD ... better to use mini-minelayer for booster.
PP ... is weak. Sure, can boost with DD-s why not.
IT has privateers immediately, these usually have plenty of fuel for the not so long distances that IT has to fly. Privateers may drag along one Mayflower, no biggie. Sure, IT can escort his colony fleets with DD-s why not.
AR ... sole PRT that may avoid immediately populating his colonies because AR cant be pop-dropped. Irrelevant because AR can use only colony ship hull for colonizer. AR is also most limited by ironium so often dont have it for booster DDs and instead aims for large freighters asap.
JOAT is yes, JOAT is strong and hard to screw up. Too powerful and easy to play PRT whatever you do and can afford double cost colonizers too.
-f races can usually have LF by turn 11 like AR. There is nothing with better cost efficency for cargo and fuel so early in game compared to Large Freighter. Cost efficency is a key both for AR because of mineral limit and for -f that wants to use his resources for takin unfair share of planets early to stay competive.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Sat, 30 December 2006 01:29 |
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| Iconian |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Coyote: Boy, I can't make up my mind now. Before posting I thought about a Fueler with lasers and discounted it. Now, I'm thinking it would mostly come down to personal preference. I'd generally rather have a specialty beamer with one or two MJ's and a Fueler supporting it than a Fueler with two X-rays--Stars! seems better for specialized designs. The armed Fueler would kind of be slow. But maybe just as a defender it would be OK . . . I wonder which would be better overall . . . probably not a Fueler with one laser, anyway.
Kotk: Yep, the destroyer colonizer costs 42% more resources than the Santa Maria. That is quite a bit of difference. I think I mostly like the intimidation factor that Colony DD's would bring. And yes, I like the armor and the idea that no one will attack at the same time. I guess maybe that's just me contradicting myself a bit, but hey, if no one attacks you and even if they did they couldn't take you out, wouldn't that be good?
Anyway, thank you both for your fast replies.
[Updated on: Sat, 30 December 2006 01:30]
Yeah, bread too.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Sat, 30 December 2006 04:04 |
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| Drakhyulla |
 | Crewman 2nd Class |
Messages: 16
Registered: December 2006
Location: A crypt near you :)= | |
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| Iconian wrote on Sat, 30 December 2006 01:29 |
Coyote: Boy, I can't make up my mind now. Before posting I thought about a Fueler with lasers and discounted it. Now, I'm thinking it would mostly come down to personal preference. I'd generally rather have a specialty beamer with one or two MJ's and a Fueler supporting it than a Fueler with two X-rays--Stars! seems better for specialized designs. The armed Fueler would kind of be slow. But maybe just as a defender it would be OK . . . I wonder which would be better overall . . . probably not a Fueler with one laser, anyway.
snip
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A fueller with a couple of lasers increases your options and provides protection only at the cost of a few resources and B of which you have plenty at this stage.
The reason for using the fuelers is to speed up getting your pop to it's destination where it can grow and increase your economy. Speed also means it's less likely that the opposition can react to prevent you colonising or building up your world. Furthermore, the fuelers are often most needed when sending out an initial colony to 4 * W9 travel or more. You want to be their quick before someone else gets it and you want to prevent someone being able to stop you just because they happened to have an armed scout nearby.
As an opponent, it is early in the game and the race to grab real estate is underway ... you see a colony heading somewhere you'd like to be. But wait, the scoundrel has a couple of DD's accompanying the transports. You ponder your options ... you check their weight ... no popguns  ... looks like you could kill them off if you build your own red laser DD's this year. Hmmm you look again - no wait  they have a couple of lasers aboard (which could be blue for all you know ... unless you're a WM who'd already be licking his lips for the kill anyway) ... can you afford the extra Ir to ensure you have sufficient firepower? Possibly better off building two sets of transports and colonising two other planets instead. Decisions, decisions ... 
Perhaps those lasers are worth it just as a deterrent from opportunistic attacks, if nothing else.
Do I need to point out that WM Yaki armed fuelers rock?
Drakhyulla.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Sat, 30 December 2006 16:36 |
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| Quote: |
Santa Maria is 27i/9b/22g/37r
DD colonizer is 38i/12b/16g/64r
So it costs almost twice more than Santa Maria in resources. So one can build 2 Santa Marias and one real DD for cost of 2 fakes. Most minerals are given back but no resources when colonizing. One rarely just colonizes there without immediately populating....
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Actually, there could be a case for using DD colonizers.. Since the 'dd colonizer' is a little less than twice the cost of the colonizer, but less germ, a case can be made for an HP to use them since the initial colony size is doubled. HP's are usually at best 1 in 4 habitability and don't end up building so many colonizers early since they don't find so many planets.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Wed, 03 January 2007 01:16 |
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| Iconian |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2006
Location: Nevada, USA | |
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Drakhyulla: I think armed Fuelers would be a good idea in many circumstances. In a battle they'd usually be the first target, so the ships they're helping would be protected. I don't know that they'd be able to inflict much damage though. I think in terms of holding an orbit against colonizers a DD with MJ's would be much better though.
vonKreedon said:
| Quote: |
My booster is essentially an expendable fuel tank; I put several scout based boosters with a fleet so that the fleet has almost enough fuel to make it to the destination at the desired speed. Then as the fleet moves I split boosters off of the fleet and transfer all of their fuel to the fleet so that the fleet can actually make it to the destination at the desired speed.
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That's what I was saying with this:
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The only exception I can think of is that maybe if you had a lot of scouts merged with a bigger fleet the scouts could drop off sooner than Fuelers, lightening the load so that the fuel efficiency gets a bit better.
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Usually I'll merge several colonizers and Fuelers with each other and send them off in a general direction. I'll drop the Fuelers off one or two at a time on the way, and after the fleet's gone a couple hundred ly I'll split up the colonizers to their individual destinations, with the ones that are traveling the farthest getting the remaining Fuelers. Individual Fuelers wouldn't be too intimidating, but there would be times when they're merged, and these would be good opportunities to head briefly for enemy ships or planets. The cost/fuel ratio is also much better on the DDs.
13 scouts:
208i, 26b, 52g, 299r, 221kt, 3900mg, 260dp
5 Fuelers (w/out lasers):
160i, 15b, 25g, 265r, 210kt, 3900mg, 1000dp
Yeah, bread too.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 12 January 2007 05:55 |
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| tgellan |
 | Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006
Location: Luxembourg | |
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In my last game, I did use an even more radical use for DDs. It was very well in the end game by then. I played as SS and any border was filled with mines, both mine and not mine Research was also reaching max levels, for instance I had at least W maxed out...
At that point, my territory was completely covered with colonies but I was trying to increase it, so I looked at those nice green planets across the border that were not used at all... Then I had several obsolete transports still in use, so the solution was the following:
DD with good engine, 2x best beamers, 1x Colony Pod, some gimmicks like Overthrusters... Alone they were perfect sweepers, in packs nice skirmishers and merged with those obsolete freighters perfect colonizers. They could even have had a penscan too, thus acting as scouts too, but don't remember that though...
Of course they were nothing ressource efficient, but then, I didn't need many of those. Therefor I wouldn't do that in early games, in that late game they did just fit in perfectly as a multipurpose, low-number vessel 
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 12 January 2007 10:12 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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I like to use DDs for sweepers, especially against SDs. Even late game they make some of the best sweepers. Nubians can take more hits, but are much more expensive. Usually you don't put the best equipment on them, second best makes them cheaper, and more expendable, because then you're not giving away tech to people who kill them. And, I generally do put armor on them, it decreases their combat ability, but increases how well they survive mine hits. The amount of armor depends a lot on if you're facing SD, if you have RS, and what tech you have, organic is often not enough if you have RS and are facing a SD.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 12 January 2007 20:35 |
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For RS IS, it increases the ship's armor DP and is a decent shield too.
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| Re: Radical Uses for the Destroyer |
Fri, 12 January 2007 20:50 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| Coyote wrote on Fri, 12 January 2007 20:35 |
For RS IS, it increases the ship's armor DP and is a decent shield too.
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Croby on a DD isn't a good idea. On a FF it is, and that's probably a better sweeper, if you can build it.
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