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Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 00:46 Go to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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worth using if i have ARM? I'm just wondering if i should use it when i get it or tech up to get the final one. I suppose it will take quite a few turns research more since those last few extra constr will be beastly in cost...should i get energy first too?

currently my tech is at 10 0 2 11 0 1..yet i'm very safe so weapons are not an issue

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 01:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Hmm, I hope you trust whoever is protecting you... Weap 0 is a VERY dangerous place to be.

Superminers vs Ultras.... Ultras are of course better - cheaper, more efficient, more easily gated... But if you wait for them before building miners you might find yourself short of minerals when you need them.... If you have plenty of minerals from your starbases then you might be able to afford to wait, but that's a dangerous strategy. Be carefull not to fall into the trap of over-researching - you can have the best tech in the game, but if you never build an army you will still lose ground. Work out how quickly you can get the various techs, add a few years to cover for unexpected events, then decide if you think you can afford to wait that long.

Worst case scenario - you push for Ultras, but are attacked before they are ready. You then have to push resources into weapons and have to build super miners anyway (and late.)

Best case scenario - you race for Ultras, build them straight away and are well on the way towards the mineral fountain of your dreams (better hope you get that weapons tech before someone notices though, lol)

The happy middle ground - hedge it - build some super miners asap, then go for ultras. If you need the extra ship slot later, you could trade the super miners to a OBRM ally.


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 01:09]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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awesome thanks for the advice

"Weap 0 is a VERY dangerous place to be."

heh don't i know it..but honestly the political game is far more interesting to me than the actual game that i've been playing for a few years...this game i'm playing far riskier than i ever have done..but even if i die..i'll have enjoyed the fancy game of political maneuvering that was played

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 01:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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I updated my post above with some more info. I'd go with 'the happy middle ground' myself, unless you really are as secure as you think you are.

Oh, and buy some weapons tech scrappers... Don't ask for low tech level scrappers either - or you announce to the world how low your tech is (assuming they aren't reading this, lol.) Research the cheap levels yourself right before you start scrapping.


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 01:13]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
knightpraetor wrote on Mon, 16 October 2006 06:46

currently my tech is at 10 0 2 11 0 1..yet i'm very safe so weapons are not an issue

Weapons are ALWAYS an issue Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation The first non-ally who will use a wormhole to get to your space will shot down half your orbitals with mere bazooka fregates, because you'll have only punny lasers to defend yourself.

Quote:

the political game is far more interesting to me than the actual game that i've been playing for a few years

But if you don't have even MEANS to defend yourself you'll definitelly not enjoy the wargame that's definitely coming. ARs need at least weap-10 (to iron-efficiently kill bazooka DDs that are out of reach of earlier weapons), and bio-3 for terra-11 in temp and rad.
However the next thing in a peacefull universe after con 12 should be super robo miner, because you'll NEED more minerals. Those new Ultras will ate lots of germanium, and waiting for "natural" mining to get it back will be way too slow. Having 6-10 super-robots over rich planets will pay for themself quickly and will help you build your empire in much safer way. You'll have decent mineral source and you'll be able to research other more urgently needed techs than con-15 and elec-8.

BR, Iztok

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 02:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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it's still pretty early game and we're playing non-bbs start...it's very unlikely anyone has more than 15-30destroyers atm, and everyone has been kept nicely occupied..however, you make me feel like at least gettnig some beta torpedoes..this is pretty risky..i don't have anything at less than space dock level but even so, alpha torps aren't that good.

but this isn't like a pro level game like you guys play..i can afford to take a few risks:P i am only playing AR as a handicap anyways, however, i am curious what sorta station weapons you would choose to defend your bases early game. I will go research it i guess..it really bothers me to have to, but it will only take a few turns to get those early levels. As for trading tech, it's not an option

also, is it better to use the larger miner hulls for efficiency? or the midget so you can gate them?


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 02:26]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 02:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Colloidals on orbitals are nice as the +1 range bonus means they can reach out and touch incoming range 4 torpedo ships (until capital ship missiles...) but don't cost iron (needed for miners) or germanium (needed for ultra stations.)

So W10 is a nice target.

Alternatively you could go for phazor bazooka (W6?) frigates for a mobile defence. Your RS and good energy can make them very effective (but vulnerable to Beta/Delta torp DDs)


[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 02:56]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 03:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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why frigates instead of destroyers?
also, i'm guessing you mean that phazor bazooka frigates are too slow on teh combat board to compete with torpedo DD?

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Frigates because you can put 3 shields on them and they are cheap... Frigate hordes with regenerating shields are tough to deal with in early game, as those stacked shields can be extremely difficult to deal with, but are somewhat vulnerable to torpedoes (another reason to get W10 - delta torps on stations can reduce the danger considerably...)

[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 03:13]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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what is a good counter to beta torpedo destroyers midgame if you know a player favors them

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Re: Robo-super-miner Mon, 16 October 2006 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Beam destroyers.

This is an oversimplification but you can loosely lay it out like this:

Beam FFs > Beam DDs > Torp DDs > Beam FFs > ...

You'll need those Beam DDs to be (relatively) fast though, to hit the torp DDs enough times before they can retreat...

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Re: Robo-super-miner Tue, 17 October 2006 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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so how do the higher classes of ships fit into this? I assume i should upgrade to cruisers when i get them? and my friends wondering whether rogues are worth using for military, but i guess i'll have to search the SS forums for that info. Worthless bastard should do his own searching

also, do frigates catch up to destroyers faster since they are light? and if so, won't torp FF counter laser FF


[Updated on: Tue, 17 October 2006 09:49]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Tue, 17 October 2006 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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knightpraetor wrote on Tue, 17 October 2006 23:45

so how do the higher classes of ships fit into this? I assume i should upgrade to cruisers when i get them? and my friends wondering whether rogues are worth using for military, but i guess i'll have to search the SS forums for that info. Worthless bastard should do his own searching

also, do frigates catch up to destroyers faster since they are light? and if so, won't torp FF counter laser FF


Lighter ships get to move last, which is nice for choosing range.

Destroyers can generally have a higher battle speed, because you can mount 1 or 2 maneuvering jets. That, and the 200 points of armour, are why beam DDs can chew up torp DDs. Frigates will take too long to close to range, and with only 45 armour they fall pretty quick to torps (which deal half their damage straight through those massive shields...)

I wouldn't bank on a frigate catching any missile ship before it can disengage, unless you put expensive engines on it, which somewhat dilutes the point of frigates.


Bigger ships are generally better, and needed to cope as weapons tech starts to make the smaller ships obselete... I'm not going to go into talking about those... Much bigger topic and one that has been well covered many times before. Check the Academy sub-forum.

Quick answers though (don't ask me for more detail)
- Yes, Rogues are used by some people as warships.
- Yes it's worth using cruisers - heaps of armour and more slots for electrial / mechanical equipment to make your weapons/defenses more effective. I have seen people 'skip' cruisers though, and go straight to battleships. They aren't *that* much better. And in some situations FFs can still win.
- Battleships own it up for a long time, although cruisers do stay usefull as a gateable reserve - most battleship designs are a bit on the heavy side.
...

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Re: Robo-super-miner Sat, 28 October 2006 06:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
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so am i better off putting one robo-ultra miner on a midget miner so that it is gateable? or can i do two? i don't have any real experience with overgating

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Re: Robo-super-miner Sat, 28 October 2006 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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knightpraetor wrote on Sat, 28 October 2006 20:47

so am i better off putting one robo-ultra miner on a midget miner so that it is gateable? or can i do two? i don't have any real experience with overgating


assuming 300/500 gates, you can put two on. One of the key advantages of the ultra miner device.

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Re: Robo-super-miner Tue, 31 October 2006 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
c64k

 
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And keep in mind that for AR races, you can mine on the turn-of-arrival if you have colonized the destination. In the mid and late games, I often send out a colonizer with a couple thousand people to grab any reds that I plan on remote-mining so that I can take advantage of this.

This can be very useful, since the order of events is movement/gating, then mining, and *then* production, so gating in lots of miners will allow you to boost the minerals at a planet for *immediate use* in production, and it also means that you can gate your miners around without losing any turns of mining. That alone makes gateable AR "superbugs" (2 ultras on a midget) a very powerful tool.

As for building strategy, I personally make a dash for maxibots (as AR, you probably already have construction cheap and level 4 electronics isn't that expensive) and use maxis+midgets for most of the early game, but only building as much as necessary (this, of course, varies based on how secure you are with your neighbors) to sustain the economy and some defenses. Depending on whether I'm at peace, I may skip the superbots because usually by then, I'm not too far from the ultrabots. And once I get the ultrabots, I splurge on miner construction and build lots of superbugs. I never use any hull other than the midget miner (as long as you stick a cheap engine like a fuel mizer on your midgets, they just as cost-effective as the big hulls, and since you'll be moving them around mostly by gate anyways, you can afford to use an inexpensive engine.)

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Re: Robo-super-miner Tue, 31 October 2006 20:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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btw, just a little clarification on that - I'm 99% sure that <snip>a heap of incorrect information</snip>

If you aren't ARM, don't despair - one miner on the small miner hull is gateable too (with damage) although you wouldn't want to build all your miners like this - it's certainly not an efficient use of the hull. Although not taking ARM as AR kinda feels a bit like cutting off one of your legs so it doesn't slow you down Laughing Yes, I know going ARMless isn't really that bad a choice, but it still *feels* wrong Laughing


[Updated on: Tue, 31 October 2006 21:19]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Tue, 31 October 2006 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
c64k

 
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Mining on arrival is agnostic to the travel method and will work whether you are gating or driving. I'm currently in an AR game, and I'm making good use of it even as we speak. Smile

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Re: Robo-super-miner Tue, 31 October 2006 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Cool.

Ok, well that's the 1 covered, the next 99 things I say should all be accurate.

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Re: Robo-super-miner Wed, 01 November 2006 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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The case when AR "remote mining on arrival" feature does not work is when "merge" waypoint 1 order is used instead of "remote mine" waypoint 1 order. Worse, i have impression that even rest of the fleet to what you merge that way does not mine then.

That exception may be the reason of confusion to people who often move/gate fleets with merge on arrival orders. Wink

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Re: Robo-super-miner Wed, 15 November 2006 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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No I don't think so, I've done it with non AR a lot and I've always managed to sustain a constant influx of ore as I'm constantly merging fleets. I think the merge order comes after the mining so they'd mine at their normal rate and then get merged. The merging fleet wouldn't mine though your right. Or should be right.


Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"

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Re: Robo-super-miner Wed, 15 November 2006 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
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But, you have to give the fleet merge orders, and cannot give it mine orders at the same time, so I don't see how it could both mine and merge in the same turn.


- LEit

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Re: Robo-super-miner Wed, 15 November 2006 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Captain Maim is currently offline Captain Maim

 
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No, no, no I was saying the miners that were originally there mine, and the new miners don't but are instead added to the fleet after mining has occurred.


Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"

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Re: Robo-super-miner Wed, 15 November 2006 23:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
c64k

 
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Captain Maim wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 23:06

No, no, no I was saying the miners that were originally there mine, and the new miners don't but are instead added to the fleet after mining has occurred.

Yes, that is correct. But nobody in the thread was saying that the existing fleet wouldn't mine. Smile We're talking about the arriving fleet. For non-AR, the arriving fleet doesn't mine on the turn of arrival anyway, so it doesn't matter if the arriving fleet has merge orders or not. But for AR, since the arriving fleet is capable of mining, if the destination orders are to merge and not to mine, then the mining won't occur, and the AR would lose that arrival mining if the merge orders are used, so an AR should not use WP1 merge orders with their mining fleets fleets.


[Updated on: Wed, 15 November 2006 23:38]

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Re: Robo-super-miner Thu, 16 November 2006 06:01 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Kotk

 
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Actually i had impression that merging may work unusually for AR at colonized planets but i double tested it and no.

AR arriving fleet will mine if it had WP1 remote mine order and WP1 is his own colonized planet.
At empty planet AR miners mine only as WP0 order like everybodys.


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