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icon12.gif  Joat, the non-boring PRT Sun, 09 February 2003 08:17 Go to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
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Location: Vienna, AUT
Not a single Joat posting so far? Sorry, but I had to change that Wink

The Joat are by no means a boring PRT - on the contrary. While being a good place to start and to learn for newbies, they offer a large variety of design approaches for the advanced player. If they lack anything, it is the absence of a PRT specific item or hull, and often that lack feels harder with them common choices of OBRM and NAS. In fact, I do consider the 3 hulls having a buildt in penscanner being PRT specific hulls, but most players don't, especially because that ability is "lost" when a Joat player trades his ships. Apart from cheap early scout based vessels, that have the ability to get better scanning along with increasing electronics tech (BTW, the *only* improving component in Stars!), I especially like building early multi role ships based on DDs for scouting, sweeping, skirmishing.

For beginners I regard it extremely important to learn pop management correctly. Hence, all so called "economic PRTs" (IS, IT, CA, Joat) take most of their advantages from improved pop growth. Joats are rewarding PRT to learn, in two ways: on one hand, as long as a newbies pop management isn't as good as that of another player, Joats 20% pop bonus (that makes a lot of a difference in growth) helps to keep up in popgrowth. OTOH, as soon as you start to get the feeling how to do things the right way, you'll get enourmous popgrowth as a return, where only CA and IS might be able to keep up with.

Let me suggest a pretty much "std" design for newbies making their 1st steps in a pbem:

"Newbies choice"
Joat
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, LSP
19%, 1/1000
2*68 wide, centered, rad 16-56 (1in4)
12/9/13/4g factories
12/3/13 mines
weap+con cheap, rest exp, doesn't start at 4
6 left (concentrations)

For sure, that doesn't look too spectacular - but the race above gives close to HP capacity at HG speed. The planetary maximum is a decent 3379 resources. Early growth can be impressive. Don't be worried about the LSP,
...




Verker ||¬]

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Mon, 17 February 2003 03:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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lets post some more on the good old JOAT....

ORBM + JOAT gives you the highest planetary population that occurs naturally... a total of 133% normal capacity.

IN other words compariong JOAT to another PRT of the same economy and growth...

You have export 33% more people and you can produce 33% more minerals AND you can mine 33% more. (change 33% to 20% if the other race has ORBM).

Which is great!!! BUT more importantly your JOAT race can have 5 planets to every 6 of theirs and still compete (or then can have 6 planets to every 8 of your oponent).

JOAT have many advantages outside the economic...

They are one of 2 races who can start with the Minelayer 50 tech (JOAT and CA) and one of only 4 races who can lay mines from day 1 (IS can I think, SD, CA and JOAT).
Destroyer hull + fuel mizer + organic armour + X-ray lazer <---- ca be produced from day 1.
NAS may be an automatic pick for a JOAT to get the best scanning range.... but if you don't take it, just think how far you could pen scan..........
Chaff that have more use than just being blown up.

Alot of people claim JOAT to be a beginners race. Why? tri-immune HE's are beginners races because colonising requires no thought. JOAT is a race that has LOTS of advantages with it's only weakness being a lack of distinct technology. Which is funny really because CA has only 1 specific item of tech which isn't that widely used........ Come to think of it CA is probably the best beginner race.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Mon, 17 February 2003 05:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

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I think its regarded as the "beginner race" because it *doesn't* have any exclusive items. In that respect its totally generic so when one moves to other races one knows all the basic parts.

Pop advatange. We all know how pop is the holy of holies when it comes to resources. Has to make it easier.

start at 3....gives a chance to experiment with building interesting stuff without the hassle of commiting research points to unknown parts.

Free scanners...when it comes to intel scanning is IT. a definate make it easy for the beginner thing...I know I sorely miss it when playing other races. I don't think I ever played a Joat and stopped using the LSR...I just keep building more.

tri-HE a beginner coz colonizing is easy? I don't think it is...to maximise colonising is quite a trick and absolutely vital for HE...assuming you're not playing an AI with 70% planets VC

Lastly of course...its the default race.

you could be right about CA tho being easier in the longer term.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Tue, 18 February 2003 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Verker is currently offline Verker

 
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freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 09:28


You have export 33% more people and you can produce 33% more minerals AND you can mine 33% more. (change 33% to 20% if the other race has ORBM).


Sorry but I doubt this is correct.

First, you do not produce minerals, like you produce resources. The mineral content of a planet with a given mineral concentration is consistent for every race. A race with a higher mining efficeny will be able to extract more minerals from the rocks than one with a lower mining efficency, while both deplete the concentration at the same speed. Thus, being Joat won't help you anything to get more minerals out of the rock - only increasing your mining efficency does.

The second issue is speed. A Joat building up his full 20% surplus of mines (keep in mind these cost some time and resources to be buildt, too) will be able to suck out a planets mineral content faster, than another PRT using the same mining efficeny. Thus, being Joat helps with mining speed, once you have overcome the costs and time for building these additional mines.

freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 09:28


Which is great!!! BUT more importantly your JOAT race can have 5 planets to every 6 of theirs and still compete (or then can have 6 planets to every 8 of your oponent).


There's another OBRM related issue: you can renounce OBRM keeping remotes for the endgame and still beat others in popgrowth and maximum numbers of factories/mines, even if they *do* select OBRM! Ofc with OBRM giving points in the RW (what it certainly shouldn't) that doesn't sound too attractive, but in the late game being able to strip a planets minerals in a few turns might win you a game. Mind you, others keeping that option will have a 20% deficit in factories/mines vs your Joat, and the difference in (pop)growth will be a lot more.

freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 09:28


Come to think of it CA is probably the best beginner race.


To a certain extent, IT should be very attractive for beginners. The ability to gate c
...




Verker ||¬]

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Tue, 18 February 2003 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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When a planet reaches 1% concentration of a mineral the sheer number of mines is the most important factor... efficiency is not. As such you do actually mine 33% more.

For X population with X% of mine capacity built (a -f race is best example) then you have 33% more people by being joat and you also have 33% more mines... i.e. 33% more resources and 33% more minerals per turn. Granted it brings your concentration down quicker but it still applies turn by turn.

Sure, not taking ORBM doesn't hurt a JOAT but then again why not maximise an advantage when you can do so very easily.

I'm an intermediate player at best (beginner at duelling!!!) and I started with IT... played everything else (but HE) for a while.... and I'm back to IT... only -F now Very Happy

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 19 February 2003 16:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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So like 150 eyars after game starting you would have a mining advantage? Oh well, efficiency is expensive so its obnly worth it usually if you have a high number supported. I still wonder htouhg, if peopel get away iwth crappy mine settings for -F if that'd be the best candidate for high efficiency, it'd give them a little more longevity in a game.


Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
(remove dashes)
The spamatron! run!!!

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 19 February 2003 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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I usually aim for around 10/3/16. Since this seems to be the most common settings amongst non -F races I figure if I can mine as much as them... yet take 2x the planets and use non of my minerals for anything bar ships starbases and maybe defenses I have a distinct advantage still.

you have to remember... a -F race doesn't need minerals for anything should they wish. I mean at most you need enough for a starbase, stargate and mass packet launcher... maybe some defenses too.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 19 February 2003 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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freakyboy wrote on Wed, 19 February 2003 14:17

you have to remember... a -F race doesn't need minerals for anything should they wish. I mean at most you need enough for a starbase, stargate and mass packet launcher... maybe some defenses too.
Well, there IS the endless stream of freighters you need to haul all the baby zoidlets to the lil green nursury next door. Those don't really qualify as things I WANT to make.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Thu, 20 February 2003 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Yeah but you just build freighters, non -f races will no doubt build factories (BIG drain on geranium) and as such will have very little remaining when they need to build freighters. They'll either build privateers but the ironium cost is crippling or mediums - in either case you can build both cheaper (well not cheaper, but you haven't wasted minerals on factories).

I love -F. The more I play the more I like it.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Sat, 22 February 2003 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yucaf is currently offline yucaf

 
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jeffimix wrote on Wed, 19 February 2003 16:11

So like 150 eyars after game starting you would have a mining advantage? Oh well, efficiency is expensive so its obnly worth it usually if you have a high number supported. I still wonder htouhg, if peopel get away iwth crappy mine settings for -F if that'd be the best candidate for high efficiency, it'd give them a little more longevity in a game.


It is still an advantage to be able to deplete your minerals faster than the competition. If you have more minerals on hand at some point, you can build more war ships, then attack better, gain planets and have them mine more minerals...

Also, don't forget that since you get more mines because of the 33% bonus, you can lower the number of operated in the race wizard and still have the same number operated on your planets than the other races. Therefore you get some extra race points to put somewhere else... Isn't that nice? Cool

YucaF

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 14 April 2004 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
platon79 is currently offline platon79

 
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freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 03:28


JOAT have many advantages outside the economic...

They are one of 2 races who can start with the Minelayer 50 tech (JOAT and CA) and one of only 4 races who can lay mines from day 1 (IS can I think, SD, CA and JOAT).
Destroyer hull + fuel mizer + organic armour + X-ray lazer <---- ca be produced from day 1.



How do you get that organic armor and minelayer from day one?

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 14 April 2004 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

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There is a bio 4 carbonic armor.

Not that I'd suggest sticking armor on early combat DDs.

Armor on sweeper DDs does make sense, but by the time you need sweeper DDs you should have much better armor then carbonic...



- LEit

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 14 April 2004 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
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Quote:


tri-immune HE's are beginners races because colonising requires no thought.



Ya, right! Try playing without gates when everyone else has them. HE has to start moving pop sooner than everyone else because you reach 25% level quickly with AccBBS (and need to keep pop growth up). 3i needs to care about minerals and expansion and not getting stomped on.

I suggest JOAT, IT and IS (and of course CA if not banned) for beginners. Next to CA, JOAT tends to be the ecconomic power to beat.

HE, SS, WM, AR, PP all want special treatment due to their unusual strengths and weaknesses.




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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Wed, 14 April 2004 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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multilis wrote on Thu, 15 April 2004 06:14


I suggest JOAT, IT and IS (and of course CA if not banned) for beginners. Next to CA, JOAT tends to be the ecconomic power to beat.

HE, SS, WM, AR, PP all want special treatment due to their unusual strengths and weaknesses.



Persomally I would have thought SS or WM would have been best to practice on since they have less economic advantages ie less scouting, growth or mineral MM advantages.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Thu, 15 April 2004 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
platon79 is currently offline platon79

 
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LEit wrote on Wed, 14 April 2004 11:28

There is a bio 4 carbonic armor.

Not that I'd suggest sticking armor on early combat DDs.

Armor on sweeper DDs does make sense, but by the time you need sweeper DDs you should have much better armor then carbonic...


It was the "day 1" that baffled me. How do you get bio4 from day 1?

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Thu, 15 April 2004 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SlaveOfSeven is currently offline SlaveOfSeven

 
Petty Officer 2nd Class

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^75% extra box start at 4

Extra level for JoaT.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Thu, 15 April 2004 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
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SlaveOfSeven wrote on Thu, 15 April 2004 14:26

^75% extra box start at 4

Extra level for JoaT.


All known as "scout minelayers from Day 1". My first blitz race did these. Got someone good who tried an early DD HW kill.

Very Happy

- Kurt

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Fri, 16 April 2004 06:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
platon79 is currently offline platon79

 
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Ah, I see.
I thought the "^75% extra box start at x" meant that the +75% extra didn't apply until over the X level. Didn't think you got the levels for free.. Therefore I never took it.. Very Happy
So that explains why I am allways behind everyone else in research..... Wall Bash Wall Bash Wall Bash
Stupid stupid me... Hit Computer

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Fri, 16 April 2004 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Hi!
platon79 wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 12:43

Ah, I see.
I thought the "^75% extra box start at x" meant that the +75% extra didn't apply until over the X level. Didn't think you got the levels for free.. Therefore I never took it.. Very Happy
So that explains why I am allways behind everyone else in research..... Wall Bash Wall Bash Wall Bash
Stupid stupid me... Hit Computer

But you had 60 RW points to spend elsewhere. That could be 1% better PGR, 1-2 fac' and a mine more, 1 tech not expensive, ISB...
Don't worry too much about your starting position. What really matters is your ending position. If you invested those 60 points properly you can have a nice edge there Twisted Evil .
BR, Iztok

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Mon, 19 April 2004 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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Agreed, the only reason I would take '75% start at x' is if I want to START with a specific tech (e.g. JOAT can start with tech 6 prop with the right RW choices....)

Unless you want that tech in 2400 most people will agree it is better to invest the points in economy settings as the first 3/4 levels of tech cost almost nothing.

all 75%, research all from 0 to 3 = total 5408 resources
all 75%, research all from 3 to 4 (JOAT) = total 4358 resources

Obviously most real races don't have all at 75% so these are
'worst case' costs...

In the first few years 5k resources is a meaningful quantity, but if you make it through the first 20 years without war (in which case you won't need all techs at 3/4) then that 5k resources is just a fraction of a single year's resources.

IMHO those 60ish RW points are much better used for a point of PGR, or a cheap tech, or a good LRT, or or or Laughing

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Tue, 20 April 2004 02:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SlaveOfSeven is currently offline SlaveOfSeven

 
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^What about the research needed for privateers and the FM though? Isn't it going to be a serious setback to your economy early on if you have to postpone factories to research the tech you need to start shifting pop? Just askin', coz I know nothing.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Tue, 20 April 2004 03:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

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Hi!
SlaveOfSeven wrote on Tue, 20 April 2004 08:08

^What about the research needed for privateers and the FM though? Isn't it going to be a serious setback to your economy early on if you have to postpone factories to research the tech you need to start shifting pop? Just askin', coz I know nothing.

I can say that getting PVT hull and FM was newer a real problem. The trick is to know when you had to start exporting pop, so you just stop building anything and put all resources in research to get the tech at proper time. One turn of crowding isn't a problem, if you need that to get the tech. Despite having a HG econ I often find myself playing those first turns almost as a -f - all resources diverted to research, later on to ships and mines. But once my PVTs start returning from new colonies (or I have enough iron) I swich back to factories. So my race usually starts in lower third, but with careful pop/germ management it climbs quite fast, and around turn 50 it is in or close to the leading pack.

For races with low starting tech the "start at 3" for expensive fields can come handy. A race with "weap cheap rest tech expensive and start at 3 checked" needs only about 550 res to get PVTs, and it already starts with FM. Very useful for HPs with their low starting res output.
My my 2 cents.
BR, Iztok


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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Tue, 20 April 2004 07:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SlaveOfSeven is currently offline SlaveOfSeven

 
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Thanks. Smile I've tried a few test's without taking starts at 4 and found that it just "felt" really slow, and if the iron is low as well it is really slow heh, but if it doesn't hold you back later too much, I guess the extra points are worth it. Certainly gives you a bit more room to make a less "standard" race.

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Mon, 26 April 2004 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dogthinkers is currently offline Dogthinkers

 
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I wouldn't worry too much about trying to max out factories in the first x years. Pop growth is much more important in the early game, and factory production will peak as soon as it hits capactiy, so there is no 'permanent' slowdown.

In my own experience I have never had problems maxxing out (or at least getting very close to maxxing out) factories in time to research PVT to export pop before overcrowding starts... But then I don't think I've ever played a 2500 eff race... I personally favor HR style - 1000 eff AND good factories gets that economy going fast Smile

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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT Fri, 30 April 2004 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 02:08

In my own experience I have never had problems maxxing out (or at least getting very close to maxxing out) factories in time to research PVT to export pop before overcrowding starts...


Could you explain this a bit further ? Are you saying that you have several hundred factories and have researched the PVT before your HW hits 25% capacity ?

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