Home » Primary Racial Traits » JOAT » Joat, the non-boring PRT
Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Sun, 09 February 2003 08:17 ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Verker | ![](images/po_master.gif) | Master Chief Petty Officer VML mod guy | Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003 Location: Vienna, AUT | |
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Not a single Joat posting so far? Sorry, but I had to change that ![Wink](images/smiley_icons/icon_wink.gif)
The Joat are by no means a boring PRT - on the contrary. While being a good place to start and to learn for newbies, they offer a large variety of design approaches for the advanced player. If they lack anything, it is the absence of a PRT specific item or hull, and often that lack feels harder with them common choices of OBRM and NAS. In fact, I do consider the 3 hulls having a buildt in penscanner being PRT specific hulls, but most players don't, especially because that ability is "lost" when a Joat player trades his ships. Apart from cheap early scout based vessels, that have the ability to get better scanning along with increasing electronics tech (BTW, the *only* improving component in Stars!), I especially like building early multi role ships based on DDs for scouting, sweeping, skirmishing.
For beginners I regard it extremely important to learn pop management correctly. Hence, all so called "economic PRTs" (IS, IT, CA, Joat) take most of their advantages from improved pop growth. Joats are rewarding PRT to learn, in two ways: on one hand, as long as a newbies pop management isn't as good as that of another player, Joats 20% pop bonus (that makes a lot of a difference in growth) helps to keep up in popgrowth. OTOH, as soon as you start to get the feeling how to do things the right way, you'll get enourmous popgrowth as a return, where only CA and IS might be able to keep up with.
Let me suggest a pretty much "std" design for newbies making their 1st steps in a pbem:
"Newbies choice"
Joat
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, LSP
19%, 1/1000
2*68 wide, centered, rad 16-56 (1in4)
12/9/13/4g factories
12/3/13 mines
weap+con cheap, rest exp, doesn't start at 4
6 left (concentrations)
For sure, that doesn't look too spectacular - but the race above gives close to HP capacity at HG speed. The planetary maximum is a decent 3379 resources. Early growth can be impressive. Don't be worried about the LSP, being an OBRM Joat you should make up for that sooner than you might think. Having ISB would be nice for early spreading, but in universes up to medium, one should be able to renounce that (and I'd always prefer the strong mining settings). Newbies shouldn't try anything bigger than medium for their 1st pbem anyway.
There's 3 things about this design I'd like to point out: the hab range is designed in a way that results in a 1in2 using only radiation TF, that comes fast from the cheap weapons tech. The mine settings will help a lot; yes, there's a lot of points in them, but mind you that Joats have an additional demand because of their planet size combined with OBRM. Selecting a higher concentration will result in having more minerals "in the rock", enabling you to get more minerals out of a given planet, than a race using 10/3/15, while your additional number of mines due to being Joat will enable you to pull them out just as fast as your competitor. I advise newbies to stick with these settings for their 1st game. There's no point in gathering vast amounts of resources, if you lack minerals to turn them into ships. The third point being the tech: weap cheap is pretty much std in pbems for a few years now - goes well with the terra approach described above. Joats 3-3-4-3-3-3 tech start (in this case) enables to fight right from turn 2400 if necessary (with PRTs just one cheap tech level away, and mine layers just one expensive tech level to go), while cheap con tech will enable to keep up in the race to BBs and Nubians later.
It is true that this design lacks in diplomacy, since it has nothing to trade besides early information. Yes, don't underestimate that. It will be 20-30 turns until neighboring races might be able to field penscanning ships. During that timeframe, being on the lookout for another races habitable planets might get you an ally. At least, that is a better chance than anything else you might have to offer later.
Diplomacy takes us on to advanced designs. At a level where everybody has a decent design and decent play, having something decent to trade might make a difference. Here's a design that advanced players should be able to have some fun with:
"Adv. players choice"
Joat
IFE, ISB, NRSE, RS
19% 1/1000
2*74 wide, right shifted, rad 16-54 (1in4)
10/9/10/4g factories
10/3/10 mines
weap+con cheap, rest exp, doesn't start at 4
50 left (factories)
The above is a pretty untypical hybrid design, made to play it -f style in the early stages (no factory build, just mines and as many vessels as early as possible, buildt at docks everywhere) to get a kill or two until midgame. Ten extra factories from the start will give you an early resource boost (while Joats in advanced games will have to leave some points unused most of the time). A planetary max of 2400 means doubling a std -fs capacity for little investment. You'll build factories when you have time to. The whole idea is to make up for the weak (for a -f) tech choice by better capacity. Besides, you get a head start in the tech tree, while RS even betters that for your early DD designs. The hab idea works just as with the race given above.
Races that attack early need special diplomatic abilities - thus, this race keeps the "anti-thematic" for Joat: penscanners and remote miners. Both do have advantages for the Joat, too, not only for trade: you will ive on 1in2 in the late game, still leaving enough worlds to make remote mining useful by then. Besides, planetary based penscanners combined with later CCs mounted penscanners will prevent your enemies popular approach to take out a Joats "eyes" by focussing on his hulls with buildt in scanners (that have no means to defend themselves in the later game, as well as lack decent cloaking before overcloakers are out).
Admittedly NRSE isn't too popular for -f style races, but enables this one to be competitive in larger places (at least as long as it grabs enough territory early on). No further playing hints here, since advanced players shouldn't really need any, not even for a hybrid ![Wink](images/smiley_icons/icon_wink.gif)
I for one had fun with both of the above in more than one game, and I'd bet others would have, too. If you do (or did), let us know.
Verker ||¬]
verker@iname.donotspamhere.com remove the obvious for mailing meReport message to a moderator
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Mon, 17 February 2003 03:28 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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lets post some more on the good old JOAT....
ORBM + JOAT gives you the highest planetary population that occurs naturally... a total of 133% normal capacity.
IN other words compariong JOAT to another PRT of the same economy and growth...
You have export 33% more people and you can produce 33% more minerals AND you can mine 33% more. (change 33% to 20% if the other race has ORBM).
Which is great!!! BUT more importantly your JOAT race can have 5 planets to every 6 of theirs and still compete (or then can have 6 planets to every 8 of your oponent).
JOAT have many advantages outside the economic...
They are one of 2 races who can start with the Minelayer 50 tech (JOAT and CA) and one of only 4 races who can lay mines from day 1 (IS can I think, SD, CA and JOAT).
Destroyer hull + fuel mizer + organic armour + X-ray lazer <---- ca be produced from day 1.
NAS may be an automatic pick for a JOAT to get the best scanning range.... but if you don't take it, just think how far you could pen scan..........
Chaff that have more use than just being blown up.
Alot of people claim JOAT to be a beginners race. Why? tri-immune HE's are beginners races because colonising requires no thought. JOAT is a race that has LOTS of advantages with it's only weakness being a lack of distinct technology. Which is funny really because CA has only 1 specific item of tech which isn't that widely used........ Come to think of it CA is probably the best beginner race.
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Mon, 17 February 2003 05:50 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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I think its regarded as the "beginner race" because it *doesn't* have any exclusive items. In that respect its totally generic so when one moves to other races one knows all the basic parts.
Pop advatange. We all know how pop is the holy of holies when it comes to resources. Has to make it easier.
start at 3....gives a chance to experiment with building interesting stuff without the hassle of commiting research points to unknown parts.
Free scanners...when it comes to intel scanning is IT. a definate make it easy for the beginner thing...I know I sorely miss it when playing other races. I don't think I ever played a Joat and stopped using the LSR...I just keep building more.
tri-HE a beginner coz colonizing is easy? I don't think it is...to maximise colonising is quite a trick and absolutely vital for HE...assuming you're not playing an AI with 70% planets VC
Lastly of course...its the default race.
you could be right about CA tho being easier in the longer term.
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Tue, 18 February 2003 11:45 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Verker | ![](images/po_master.gif) | Master Chief Petty Officer VML mod guy | Messages: 99
Registered: January 2003 Location: Vienna, AUT | |
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freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 09:28 |
You have export 33% more people and you can produce 33% more minerals AND you can mine 33% more. (change 33% to 20% if the other race has ORBM).
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Sorry but I doubt this is correct.
First, you do not produce minerals, like you produce resources. The mineral content of a planet with a given mineral concentration is consistent for every race. A race with a higher mining efficeny will be able to extract more minerals from the rocks than one with a lower mining efficency, while both deplete the concentration at the same speed. Thus, being Joat won't help you anything to get more minerals out of the rock - only increasing your mining efficency does.
The second issue is speed. A Joat building up his full 20% surplus of mines (keep in mind these cost some time and resources to be buildt, too) will be able to suck out a planets mineral content faster, than another PRT using the same mining efficeny. Thus, being Joat helps with mining speed, once you have overcome the costs and time for building these additional mines.
freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 09:28 |
Which is great!!! BUT more importantly your JOAT race can have 5 planets to every 6 of theirs and still compete (or then can have 6 planets to every 8 of your oponent).
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There's another OBRM related issue: you can renounce OBRM keeping remotes for the endgame and still beat others in popgrowth and maximum numbers of factories/mines, even if they *do* select OBRM! Ofc with OBRM giving points in the RW (what it certainly shouldn't) that doesn't sound too attractive, but in the late game being able to strip a planets minerals in a few turns might win you a game. Mind you, others keeping that option will have a 20% deficit in factories/mines vs your Joat, and the difference in (pop)growth will be a lot more.
freakyboy wrote on Mon, 17 February 2003 09:28 |
Come to think of it CA is probably the best beginner race.
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To a certain extent, IT should be very attractive for beginners. The ability to gate c
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Verker ||¬]
verker@iname.donotspamhere.com remove the obvious for mailing meReport message to a moderator
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Wed, 19 February 2003 16:11 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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So like 150 eyars after game starting you would have a mining advantage? Oh well, efficiency is expensive so its obnly worth it usually if you have a high number supported. I still wonder htouhg, if peopel get away iwth crappy mine settings for -F if that'd be the best candidate for high efficiency, it'd give them a little more longevity in a game.
Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
(remove dashes)
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Wed, 19 February 2003 17:17 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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I usually aim for around 10/3/16. Since this seems to be the most common settings amongst non -F races I figure if I can mine as much as them... yet take 2x the planets and use non of my minerals for anything bar ships starbases and maybe defenses I have a distinct advantage still.
you have to remember... a -F race doesn't need minerals for anything should they wish. I mean at most you need enough for a starbase, stargate and mass packet launcher... maybe some defenses too.
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Thu, 20 February 2003 03:30 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Yeah but you just build freighters, non -f races will no doubt build factories (BIG drain on geranium) and as such will have very little remaining when they need to build freighters. They'll either build privateers but the ironium cost is crippling or mediums - in either case you can build both cheaper (well not cheaper, but you haven't wasted minerals on factories).
I love -F. The more I play the more I like it.
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Sat, 22 February 2003 12:38 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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yucaf | ![](images/po_master.gif) | Master Chief Petty Officer | Messages: 100
Registered: December 2002 Location: India | |
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jeffimix wrote on Wed, 19 February 2003 16:11 | So like 150 eyars after game starting you would have a mining advantage? Oh well, efficiency is expensive so its obnly worth it usually if you have a high number supported. I still wonder htouhg, if peopel get away iwth crappy mine settings for -F if that'd be the best candidate for high efficiency, it'd give them a little more longevity in a game.
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It is still an advantage to be able to deplete your minerals faster than the competition. If you have more minerals on hand at some point, you can build more war ships, then attack better, gain planets and have them mine more minerals...
Also, don't forget that since you get more mines because of the 33% bonus, you can lower the number of operated in the race wizard and still have the same number operated on your planets than the other races. Therefore you get some extra race points to put somewhere else... Isn't that nice?
YucaF
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Wed, 14 April 2004 14:14 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Quote: |
tri-immune HE's are beginners races because colonising requires no thought.
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Ya, right! Try playing without gates when everyone else has them. HE has to start moving pop sooner than everyone else because you reach 25% level quickly with AccBBS (and need to keep pop growth up). 3i needs to care about minerals and expansion and not getting stomped on.
I suggest JOAT, IT and IS (and of course CA if not banned) for beginners. Next to CA, JOAT tends to be the ecconomic power to beat.
HE, SS, WM, AR, PP all want special treatment due to their unusual strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Wed, 14 April 2004 16:56 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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multilis wrote on Thu, 15 April 2004 06:14 |
I suggest JOAT, IT and IS (and of course CA if not banned) for beginners. Next to CA, JOAT tends to be the ecconomic power to beat.
HE, SS, WM, AR, PP all want special treatment due to their unusual strengths and weaknesses.
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Persomally I would have thought SS or WM would have been best to practice on since they have less economic advantages ie less scouting, growth or mineral MM advantages.
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Tue, 20 April 2004 03:31 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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iztok | ![](images/commander.gif) | Commander | Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
SlaveOfSeven wrote on Tue, 20 April 2004 08:08 | ^What about the research needed for privateers and the FM though? Isn't it going to be a serious setback to your economy early on if you have to postpone factories to research the tech you need to start shifting pop? Just askin', coz I know nothing.
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I can say that getting PVT hull and FM was newer a real problem. The trick is to know when you had to start exporting pop, so you just stop building anything and put all resources in research to get the tech at proper time. One turn of crowding isn't a problem, if you need that to get the tech. Despite having a HG econ I often find myself playing those first turns almost as a -f - all resources diverted to research, later on to ships and mines. But once my PVTs start returning from new colonies (or I have enough iron) I swich back to factories. So my race usually starts in lower third, but with careful pop/germ management it climbs quite fast, and around turn 50 it is in or close to the leading pack.
For races with low starting tech the "start at 3" for expensive fields can come handy. A race with "weap cheap rest tech expensive and start at 3 checked" needs only about 550 res to get PVTs, and it already starts with FM. Very useful for HPs with their low starting res output.
My .
BR, Iztok
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Re: Joat, the non-boring PRT |
Fri, 30 April 2004 15:56 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to previous message](theme/Stars/images/down.png) |
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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 27 April 2004 02:08 | In my own experience I have never had problems maxxing out (or at least getting very close to maxxing out) factories in time to research PVT to export pop before overcrowding starts...
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Could you explain this a bit further ? Are you saying that you have several hundred factories and have researched the PVT before your HW hits 25% capacity ?
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