Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Some whackier race designs
| Some whackier race designs |
Fri, 28 July 2006 03:02  |
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 JasonC |
 | Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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Some whackier race designs
This proposal was first made in response to a race critique request on the stars newsgroup.
Well I suggest actually being good at something, and I don't think the high mine efficiency was such a bad idea. Yes it is expensive, but if you run with it, it can be an important late game strength.
The improvements he suggested are conventional enough and will get you a decent vanilla race. But I'd do something extreme instead, with the same idea you had and some of his tips on execution in the race wizard. As follows. We are going to pay for it by giving up ramscoop engines and switching the specialized tech field to construction.
The Horta (or the Dwarves if you prefer...)
JOAT
IFE, NRSE, OBRM, NAS
0.54-6.32 grav
-160 to 96 temp
59-99 rad
1/5 overall
19% pop growth
1/1000
10/9/15 factories, no G box
12/3/22 mines (!)
weapons and construction cheap
energy normal
rest expensive, no start at 4 box
planet size is comparable in resource terms and perfectly adequate for an HG - 3300 resources. You specialize in mining and construction, as well as being good at early scouting.
1.32 planet size plus 22 mines operated means a max mines on your HW of 2904, and 1.2 efficiency as well. So the equivalent of 3485 mines for anybody else, double what even OBRM races with 15 operated will have. To give an idea what this means, in the endgame the HW alone is guareenteed 1045 a year of each mineral, forever. You will get 20% more stuff out for each point of depletion and will get it out up to twice as fast. Your integral of mines operated will be enourmous. And you cost for each will be low - like 2.5 mine cost.
You will therefore be able to afford significantly more missile BBs at midgame - which your tech fields will let you develop rapidly. You don't care about bio, you have penscanners from the start so elec isn't critical, prop only needs to get to 12 and you have fuel mizers early.
I hope this helps, and have fun.
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Fri, 28 July 2006 03:28  |
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matt/mlaub likes even higher mine efficiency races for similar reasons. I have seen other experts also have good mine settings for preparing for late game missile horde, at price of some risk to early game.
some other "wacky" ideas:
-t race, all techs expensive and all techs start at 3, giving lots extra points to focus on having big eccon and minerals. In this case you need to trade and/or war steal so you don't fall too far behind while you work to have twice the eccon of everyone else. Since tech is less worthwhile, you focus more on eccon and warships (large numbers of poor tech warships to defeat small foe with good tech). One example I read was how a relative loner in a certain game was major force in end from strong eccon despite low tech.
TT race, go for total terraforming meaning weaker at first but end game you get more planets turn green which can be sources of untapped minerals plus late game growth curve better, sort of like an HE. I remember how Eric Derby/Raindancer used a JOAT TT and quietly climb his eccon in end of CFLKIAB game.
A different sort of race needs a different sort of playstyle... if you have extra minerals, you want to use them, if you are -T you want to focus on stuff other than tech (as research spending does less good).
[Updated on: Fri, 28 July 2006 03:36] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Fri, 28 July 2006 10:05 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| multilis wrote on Fri, 28 July 2006 02:28 |
matt/mlaub likes even higher mine efficiency races for similar reasons.
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The most "on edge" mineral design I have made work has been:
-f IS
IS, OBRM, LSP, RS
Grav .29 - 3.92
Temp immune
Rad 48 - 88
18% 1000 5/25/5 no 15/15/5
Weap, Prop, Con cheap. Energy normal. Other 2 expensive
First 60 years was a nightmare of MM and war without mins. After Y2480, and 2 races killed, I knew I would win unless everyone could coordinate perfectly against me. I had no alliances, just NAPS.
I finally convinced everyone at Y2531 that they had no chance. I posted my ship totals (~5000 Nubs, not the best total, but lots of fighting), my Min totals, nearly a million of each mineral, and my resources were at 182K.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Fri, 28 July 2006 23:30 |
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| JasonC |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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The Ghosts
Super Stealth
IFE, ISB, OBRM, GR, TT (!)
19% pop growth
0.24 to 4.16 gravity
-136 to 135 temperature
16-56 radiation
1/4 overall
1/1000 pop eff
5/25/5 no box factories (factoryless)
10/3/10 mines
weapons cheap, all others normal
Viral early spreaders with -f, IFE, ISB.
Autobuild 1% max terra, 10 mines, contribute
Add extra terra on breeders.
Get tech resources from spying and have GR.
Use all tech fields.
Use all worlds except high rad eventually.
The narrow rad field gives larger improvements for first few terraformings.
Intersettle with a high rad narrow race.
Your economic spending is buying space through TT.
Trade G for Iron with people who need it.
You will have tech and full penscanners for trade as well.
Everything not spent on terra goes to tech early and ships later. Expensive tech races will buy you as much as they buy themselves. If you put your tech on weapons and leave it there, spying and GR will buy most of the rest.
But the kick is the warfighting, especially in the BB era.
You have stealth to conduct an antiplanetary style guerilla war and to deny main fleet battle.
Your pop can hide in 93% cloaked large freighters, "dodging" from every bomber fleet. You can live on anything late and develop it in an instant. You can steal their minerals. You can mine their space with cloaked rogue minelayers, and sweep everything the other guys lay easily, unseen. Your planet killer fleets are stealth bombers with LBUs and cherries, some pocket missile BBs to kill bases, and 98% cloaked beam BBs.
Before the BB era you fight with beam cruiser hordes made at all your little spacedocks. Those use shadow shields and in the blaster era, an ultracloak, so they go from 80+ to 90+ cloaking. Which becomes 98 for the beam BBs. Breeders all hold and export pop to fill stuff in the CA era, but put up ultras at 50% holds once you need BBs.
The start has to be planned out a bit. You buy con 3, getting fuel mizers as a side effect. Scout with probes, move initially with medium freighters with fuel pods to save iron. Get the lowest TT in bio, con 4 for docks and privateers, then switch to weapons. By the time you buy weapons 10 you will have decent side fields and terra.
Resources will be lower than standard races. It won't matter. A world costs half as much to TT and mine and gets twice what others can terra for that half, while tech costs roughly a quarter with spying and GR. If they build a bigger main fleet with their higher resources, just never leave anything near it, and they will never even find you. Hit them everywhere else.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Sat, 29 July 2006 03:27 |
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| JasonC |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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Interstellar Industries Incorporated (III)
Interstellar Traveler
ARM, NAS
gravity 0.18 to 0.56
temperature -immune-
radiation 69 to 89
1/22 overall
19% pop growth
1/2500 pop efficiency
15/8/24 3G factories
10/3/16 mines
weapons and construction cheap
propulsion normal
rest expensive
no start at 3 box.
(optional variant for the risk-averse - drop factories operated to 23 and leave a slug of points for mineral concentration boost. Ensures a good G supply from the two initial worlds).
In some respects a "two world wonder". Uses the fact that ITs are certain to get an initial green second planet. Any initial green terras to 100%, so you have 2 breeders to start with. Not to hard to find a 3rd or 4th. 4000 resources per planet max.
Remote mines, gates miners and minerals. Con cheap gives a whole slew of critical advances for a remote mining IT race. Has rams and prop normal to go to 16 in that field.
Colonize reds that won't be that way forever, sending 60k pop. Once the two initial worlds are developed and on their "holds", send their G as well. Get prop 9 large freighters in the late 20s ("megalifters" I call mine). Ramp the G output to feed all the smaller worlds by building 1-2 fleets of tech 7 miners once essential tech is paid for. Yellows have 200 resources when developed (which takes about 15 years), then they terra 2% a year and are breeders themselves in 10 years.
Trade con, prop, miners, mineral movement. You don't want many worlds, be diplomatic and make deals.
While early on you fill an area near the two homeworlds with yellows working up and remote mining sites, after about year 30 you are a different animal. Now you spread to any initial green at warp 9, with full pop and G supplies. Ten years develops it to the point where the gate goes up. Now the whole empire can feed through that hub. So you "go viral" (but sparse) after you have sufficient tech.
Best in a large galaxy with many players. Get your greens in all corners of the map. Think trading empire. Intervene cautiously to balance leaders, don't become the number one threat yourself.
With many mining sites feeding each large producer, your mineral to resource ratio is higher than most. Use it to field missiles - yours gate...
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Sat, 29 July 2006 22:38 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| JasonC wrote on Sat, 29 July 2006 03:27 |
Ten years develops it to the point where the gate goes up.
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An IT should have the gate up much faster then 10 years. I was doing it in 4 on some worlds in a recent game, and that felt much too long. 2 should be an early goal, and, once you're fairly big, you should have a gate up the year after you colonize a world, reds/yellows may take a bit longer to get to the point where they only take 1 year to pop up a gate, and is probably not possible with a 1/2500 non-OBRM race.
Hmm, maybe 10 years is a reasonable goal for a remote mining HP... But, then there's no way that could be called 'viral'.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Mon, 31 July 2006 00:00 |
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| JasonC |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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Leit - on ITs with ARM, yes I realize they normally skip it for the points. I looked at what I got for giving it up with these, and it did not look worth it to me.
There are other advantages to 300 kt miners besides gating through your own network. They are vastly more tradable, for one thing, because they also go through other people's, reach worlds through an ally's gates, etc.
In addition, the final ARM miners have half the cost of the standard ones and much greater "return on iron".
Part of the whole concept of this race is to stack the construction tech queue with every conceivable goodie.
I also note in passing that since ITs start with construction 4, with expensive and a box you can get better starting robots on the initial miners. ARM means you start with 2 miners each 2 robots, and if you have con 4 and elec 2 those are each 12 mine equivalents. You thus get 48 mines and can select a high G concentration near the HW. For an HP that is a considerable help, particularly if the HW Gcon is poor - it can easily mean 750 G by turn 20. Many HP races think little of putting 20-40 points remaining in mineral concentrations to ensure against a G con 30 start. But to get that particular extra requires the box etc. Not cheap, I understand.
As for HP ITs, of course HGs are much faster to put up gates. But then remote mining HGs (except JOATs) tend to have much smaller planets, and typically have to make it up via hab. Since the whole idea if to have a minimal diplomatic footprint...
Now, you could try the same thing without the immunity and with a hyper style economy (blitz race style, narrow no-immune with HP facts and HG pop) rather than a 1-immune HP. Having 2 worlds still helps. Don't get the assured fast breeder on a 1-immune, though.
It belongs in the wackier category because it isn't designed to win through massive resources through sheer numbers of people.
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Tue, 01 August 2006 06:07 |
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This one isn't a sure-fire winner, but its quite fun to play (well, at least I had fun with it...  )
Antarian Co-Opt
Packet Physics
OBRM, RS, LSP, ISB, TT (hehe)
Grav: 0.13 - 0.56
Temp: -160 - -48
Rad: 23 - 51
(1/38 Hab) @ 18% Growth
1000 pop = 1 res
Fact: 10,10,12
Mine: 14,5,16
Weapons & Bio cheap
Rest normal.
PP + TT + Mineral Abundance = 
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Tue, 01 August 2006 09:58 |
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| JasonC |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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I like the concept, but I think I can improve the execution.
Antares
PP
TT, OBRM, LSP, RS (see below in re ISB option)
0.50 to 1.20g
-100 to 20C
50 to 80 rad
1/28 overall
19% PGR
1/1000 pop eff
11/9/16 factories
no G box (with these mines, who needs it?)
13/3/15 mines
Weapons and Bio cheap
Electronics expensive
rest normal
25% more econ per planet, much cheaper mines and factories, higher pop growth, a bit more hab. Should have all the strengths you want but a much more viable HG economy.
I gave up 1 click of mine eff, just don't need to overdo it quite that much and there is more bang for the buck on the econ side. I might consider even going down to 1.2 to increase initial hab widths, but I'd test it first. 30% more minerals is plenty for the long term.
On ISB, if you must have it you can pay for it by changing the econ screen to 11/3/15 factories and 12/3/14 mines.
The main moving strategy is just fuel ships and prop normal to buy reasonable engines once the HW is at a hold level.
The elec expensive saves 130 points - and you will see everything anyway with packet scanning. You can stop at 11 or so, or trade for the rest.
Nice idea, and very much in the spirit of the thread.
Sincerely,
Jason Cawley
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Tue, 01 August 2006 11:07 |
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A couple more I put together which are not exactly competetive, but are rather fun to play around with...
Erbian Union
Decentralised Populists
Jack of all Trades
OBRM, RS, ISB
Grav: 1.0 - 3.2
Temp: -96 - 16
Rad: 30 - 60
(1/30) @ 20% Growth
1/1000
11,10,25 (3g)
10,5,11
All tech normal.
Pleione
Insubstantial Terraformers
Alternate Reality
RS, ARM, TT, ISB (I think I may have a starbase fixation )
Grav: 0.6 - 1.64
Temp: -116 - 28
Rad: 30 - 64
(1/20) @ 20% Growth
PopCoeff: 10
Energy -50%
Rest normal
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Tue, 01 August 2006 12:46 |
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| Sober Council wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 16:07 |
Erbian Union
(1/30) @ 20% Growth
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1 in 30, 20% growth - won't you run out of space really fast?
| Quote: |
Pleione
RS, ARM, TT, ISB (I think I may have a starbase fixation )
(1/20) @ 20% Growth
Rest normal
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More planets, and you have TT and ISB (ultras), so a lot more places to put your people. The normal construction cost will hurt though, because it will take longer to get Ultras and Death Stars.
In general though, I was under the impression that going from 19% to 20% PGR was not worth the cost.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Tue, 01 August 2006 21:50 |
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| JasonC |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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Since people aren't seeing the idea of these ridiculously narrow habs, I'll explain.
The idea is the perfect worlds - the eventual 100% ones - are set just by your centerpoints and by terraforming. Once you have 15 points of terra in each, 30% of the worlds in each attribute can be transformed to perfection. Regardless of hab width. That .3 .3 .3 isn't very many - 2.7% to first order, maybe a range of 2.5% to 3% when things like the edge effects of grav and temp are taken into account. But they are your best worlds.
Now, if a world is nearly one of those after terra, it is breeder quality eventually. That means 2 get perfect and 1 is off but still in the green range, and not right at the edge of it. Suppose the amount it is off is 5%. That changes the coefficient of number of worlds above to .4 - because it could be either direction. If they are all off that much after terra, the world is fine for typical wider habs, maybe getting dodgy (50% or so) for really narrow - but still a useable world. So that is 6.4% to first order, and means around 3-4% more worlds after the previous.
Notice, nowhere did I take actual hab width into account. Simply by terraforming and by the minimum widths, any race - even a "one world wonder" - can potentially live reasonably on about one out of 15 worlds.
Well, make those green at the start so you can land on them and develop them. You are keeping the eventually high value worlds. But only those will be initially green, everything else is at best a yellow.
The original race idea that used this relationship was the two narrow one immune hab scheme. You'd take two fields each 30 wide, typically pushed toward and edge but leaving room for yellows on both sides (7 clicks at least). And the third immune. This gives 1/10 hab. All the initial greens are decent value thanks to the immunity, and just a few terras turns them into breeder quality. They all eventually wind up perfect - and only need 2 tech fields pushed to 16 to get there - the other can be left lower. Eventually, with 30 points of "reach" from terraforming and 30 initial width, you get about .6 .6 (notice, only two factors thanks to the immunity) or about a third of all worlds usable.
Now, there is no question those 1/10s work great. They fly, easily getting 25k at year 50 or higher. They need to scout initially and they need a moving scheme, but since pop breeds well wherever it lands, they spread readily. The narrow fields make PGR relatively cheap, and about pay for the immunity. It is a classic trade of eventual capacity (from those other 2/3rds of the potential worlds) for developing speed. 1/3 is still plenty when you have allies, remote mine, etc. And the poorest third would be so bad they'd add little anyway.
The next race design to experiment with going narrower still were the "hypers - a race designed built for blitz stars. There were HGs and HPs before, and HEs were once thought terrors before them. Hypers got their name by combining the economic features of HGs and HPs, both. They have HG pop growth and pop efficiency, and HP factories. So how do they pay for it?
With narrow hab. Typically also expensive tech and LRTs that give points rather than cost them, but nobody could afford hyper econ settings with a traditional hab scheme.
The standard hab scheme of a hyper is 60 wide in rad and 44 wide in the other two. This gives 1/7 overall, but without an immunity. What's the idea? The main one is to use only initial greens that after reachable terra will be higher value worlds. 60 wide rad means, after 15 point of terra all world will be in the middle half of the rad range. The others are 44 wide because it is assumed that at the relevant period only tech 10 will have been researched in prop and energy, so there will only be 11 points of terra in their hab attributes. Again the idea is to have initially green, only the worlds that you will care about (most) later.
Hypers make up for their low width with monster planet sizes. A typical fa
...
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 04:35 |
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| tgellan |
 | Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: May 2006
Location: Luxembourg | |
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Hi,
Not shure if this race fits into the whackier class (but look at these mines considering its a -f), but here it is...
It is designed for "normal" setups, but should be fun in any setup...
The Ayindi,
PRT: IS
0pts left...
LRT:
TT - terraform is considered factories, so TT for the reduction in prize, and more "factories"
ISB - Fuel depots for reaching farer initial greens with warp-5 engines
UR - Recycling all the initial ships (hordes, freighters) then later on to export resources to newly conquered territories
NAS - I'd like to get rid off, but don't find the points 
RS - By decision
I know, quite a lot, but five are "by design", no points for NAS, could get them by setting weapons to normal, which doesn't sound good either for -f nor for the +25% cost due to IS, or decreaing mines, which is against the design idea...
0.75g - 1.80g - a few clicks wider than min. narrow
0°C - 80°C - narrowest field
Rad immune - due to distribution and RAD-RAM
Growth rate: 20 (I like it in this design, and I'm willing to pay the points)
1 in 13 planets
1/1000
5/25/5 (guess, not checked)
6/2/24 (similar values as 12/4/24, 18/4/16, 12/3/18, but better if minerals are depleated, could be set to 5/2/25 for +22 points)
The cost per mines cost 2 is huge  but it fits with the burned earth strategy, and was one of the goals of denying mineral concentrations to the enemy... (whacky  ) And I just checked the AP costs for the four different settings. The 6/2/24 though looking really bad, they are in effect the cheapest solution, but they will of course deplete the minerals twice as fast...
Tec:
each normal, weapons cheap
The idea behind this design is the burned earth strategie. Meaning, who cares if he takes planets, just evacuate the population and get planets from him. Or if he can't hold the conquered ones, bring them up in shortest time possible. On the other side, do not only deny him the surface minerals, but also eat trough mineral concentration very quickly, though still using the planet, AR was not to be considered. So on a 1-on-1 planet trade, he'll get a scorched stone, without minerals, no factories, hopefully no surface minerals, but so many mines that he can't use all of them... On the other side, planets gained are up in a few turns, depleating them as fast as possible while not using orbitals...
Research starts at 0(!!!) but in 2404 you've about 25% on HW, and Con4, even while launching up to 10 scouts before that. Eventually starting research at electronics, that way the scouts are equipped with 50ly scanners...
Even if the nearest green is way of, you'd be able to find it. Midway to greens, a fuel station colony gets build. The transitting colonists will stock the colony up, which builds a few mines and mostly terraform, eventually becoming green sometime...
So much for the design, with these ideas in head, I don't know how to improve it while still sticking to the ideas...
Comments?
Tgellan
[edit: adjusted thoughts about mines]
[Updated on: Wed, 02 August 2006 08:50] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 06:00 |
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| JasonC wrote on Wed, 02 August 2006 02:50 |
Since people aren't seeing the idea of these ridiculously narrow habs, I'll explain.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I wasn't concerned about the narrow habs (especially where the race has TT). It was combining that with a 20% rate that worried me.
If you don't have anywhere to put the population, you get overcrowding which just reduces the growth rate. You would therefore be better off reducing the growth rate and using the points to get wider habs; overall your growth will be higher *and* your final economy will be bigger.
Or am I missing something?
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 06:24 |
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For narrow hab, how about...
Crazy Insane
IT
TT, OBRM, NAS, RS
-0.96 to 1.76g
-4 to 76c
31 to 51mR
1 in 93
17% PGR
1 per 1000
13/9/21 (1 less checked)
12/3/17
Weap, Con cheap, rest expensive, not checked
26 points left over for mineral concs
With Bio 26 and TT, 1 in 2 planets will be habitable. Max planet resources will be a tad over 4000. PGR is only 17%, but it's mainly factories (and later terraforming) that will drive your growth anyway.
Initial strategy; run HW up to 25% then load up 2nd planet to 100% capacity. Build factories like mad on both planets. Should have 5k resources by 2420.
Maybe fire off some colonisers while this is going on to lay claim to planets, but for the first 20 turns it is all about getting those initial resources. The HW should top out its factories (to 25% pop level) before 2420 and so you should get some research done as well. Shortly after 2420, start building Colloidal CCs and muscle in on planets that you know will be green when your bio level rises.
As an alternative, shift one of the hab ranges over towards the edge and go for intersettling deals with your neighbours.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 10:31 |
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| JasonC |
| Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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IS
IFE, ISB, OBRM, NAS, RS
grav immune
temp -32 to 144
rad 42-86
1/5 overall, almost 1/4
19% pop growth
1/1000 pop eff
5/25/5 factories, no box
10/3/11 mines
weapons and construction cheap,
bio expensive
rest normal.
OBRM means 10% larger planets and lets you afford all cheap tech. If you want to remote mine you can set prop expensive and drop OBRM, paying the remainder with a click of hab and 2 right. But I recommend the extra resources and cheaper engines.
Grav is the immune because the prop can wait - you have fuel mizers, docks, and fuel transports. So you only need better engines for battle speed.
Energy you want to eventually get your tachyons, which I think work well with NAS, no problem.
Con cheap gets you lots of stuff you want and need - large freighters very rapidly, FFs and CAs for hordes early, BBs and 300/500s and superfreighters at midgame, for -f affordable prices.
Your tech plan is FMs, con for moving, a tiny bit of bio, then weapons and energy to 1 and 5 for terra. After that get crobies and better weapons for early horde fighting (FFs with FM) and your large freighters. When you've got decent war tech otherwise, you hit prop to get warp 9 ramscoops.
I've used -f IS races to good effect in the past - they can work.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 15:16 |
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| Marduk |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH | |
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I agree with the 10/3/ mines, but like the idea of 25 per 10k colonists. As tgellan says, that drains the minerals much faster and no normal race will be able to use them all anyway. The resource cost of the extra mines is trivial, and while the race wizard cost is a little uncomfortable it is the basis of the 'ruiner' concept.
You could drop pop growth to 18% (which I have found to work very well with an IS), bump propulsion tech to expensive. Let's see... make the mines 9/3/25, change the temp range to -36C to 132C and the rad range to 40mR to 84mR. You lose one click of width in temp, but end up with more greens from left-shifting.
I'd be more inclined to try this concept with an IT or PP, though. Both can ship the minerals more easily. Both are better for packeting - the IT for greater waste of minerals, and the PP on attack of course. The PP won't have the growth advantage of an IS race, but aside from super-orgies (tens of millions and up, which no one ever seems to use in a game) the IT is about the same.
The invasion-resistant pop of an IS doesn't impress me. The difference between a tiny fragment that survived the bombing and double that value is inconsequential. The self-replenishing invasion force is useful, but IT can get population from breeder systems to the front in no time. That's nearly as good.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 15:19 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| JasonC wrote on Wed, 02 August 2006 09:31 |
grav immune
temp -32 to 144
rad 42-86
1/5 overall, almost 1/4
19% pop growth
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I like a little wider hab. This is what I used:
.29 to 3.92
immune
44 to 88
18%
Engine says 1/3
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weapons and construction cheap,
bio expensive
rest normal.
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A -f is better off taking cheap techs, and trading for the expensive ones. You won't have enough res to research multiple normals fast enough at the higher levels. Trading is easier when you can keep up your side of the bargin. Weap, Con and Prop are good cheap choices for a -f IS. You need the Con, Weap is for early war and a hedge. Prop, for terra reasons, and hardly anyone ever takes cheap prop. If you take scoops, you want warp 10 as soon as possible. Energy Normal as a hedge, you need energy 10 and 14, but can wait for anything higher, and it is the easiest tech to trade for. Elec and Bio expensive.
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OBRM means 10% larger planets and lets you afford all cheap tech. If you want to remote mine you can set prop expensive and drop OBRM, paying the remainder with a click of hab and 2 right. But I recommend the extra resources and cheaper engines...Grav is the immune because the prop can wait
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It is better to have Temp as the the immuninty, as you need to hit lvl 16 to get the terraforming boost, and that just makes no sense in Energy. No worthwhile device at Energy16, unless you want better def, but that isn't necessary with a -f.
Taking ramscoops and prop cheap makes way more sense, as you need to get to Prop16 for the warp 10 engine, so you will get the terraforming boost with it. You can drop IFE, then. You use less fuel than everyone else anyway, as your colonists are growing in space.
NAS is not a good choice IMO, as half the fun of Tachyons is seeing cloaked ships, especially SD cloaked heavy minelayers, around planets. Interception is possible too.
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Energy you want to eventually get your tachyons, which I think work well with NAS, no problem.
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Tachyons are Elec 14, Energy 8. I think you are mixed up. By the time you need Tachyons, you can either trade for Elec, or bite the bullet and pay to 14 at around Y50. It's not that bad.
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Con cheap gets you lots of stuff you want and need - large freighters very rapidly
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You can hit Lg freight @ turn 8, IIRC, and use the warp 5 and a SFX or fuel transport for the first couple planets. Prop9 for the trans galactic fuel scoop a few years later, for long range +300ly property grabs.
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Your tech plan is FMs, con for moving, a tiny bit of bio, then weapons and energy to 1 and 5 for terra.
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I think you are missing the bigger picture of what a -f IS is capable. You can skip FM's and bio entirely for quite a few years with cheap prop, you are cherry picking and you won't need to invest in terraforming right away. Go to Weaps and Energy after prop.
Since you are upwardly mobile, grow in space, and defend better than everyone, you can start a pop drop war before anyone can react with any sort of concentration, except perhaps an IT. Using better engines on FF's allows them to go faster and further, without waiting for a dock. They are also more useful for chasing down interlopers, without worring about running out of fuel. Excellent for establishing minefields away from planets early in the game, too.
It's a snowball rolling down the hill effect, and it is difficult to stop, once it gets started.
-Matt
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Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Some whackier race designs |
Wed, 02 August 2006 15:43 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Marduk wrote on Wed, 02 August 2006 14:16 |
You could drop pop growth to 18% (which I have found to work very well with an IS)
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Yes, it's a good point mine.
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bump propulsion tech to expensive. Let's see... make the mines 9/3/25
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The whole ruiner concept seems...pointless. You are paying way to much to ruin the mining eff, when you could be building warships. If you are winning, you are only ruining your own mines! Seems like you are planning on losing, with a design like that.
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(tens of millions and up, which no one ever seems to use in a game)
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I have seen it quite a bit, and used it quite a bit.
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The invasion-resistant pop of an IS doesn't impress me. The difference between a tiny fragment that survived the bombing and double that value is inconsequential.
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Think early game, Y2401-2430 when bomber fleets are fairly worthless. You can gain lots of territory and hold it, because of your defence.
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The self-replenishing invasion force is useful, but IT can get population from breeder systems to the front in no time. That's nearly as good.
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I've played both extensively, and you are correct...until the IS gets a orgy operating. Further on in the game, being able to take planets whole without bombing makes comparisons an apple to oranges thing.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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