Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » LBUs, cherries, or both?
| LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Wed, 03 May 2006 12:58  |
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 rowenstin |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 38
Registered: December 2005 | |
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In a game I´m playing (2.7i version) I´m close behind the 1st race, who´s declared war on me. We´re both HE. Since we´re in opposite corners of the (medium size) universe, colonizing his planets would be difficult, so I´ve decide my strategy would simply be to hit his economy and win by tech or score count.
For that, I´ve thought on small fleets of overcloacked beamer battleships and bombers, backed up by cloacked minelayers. I have penetrating scanners and dozens of minicolonizers flying around like headless chickens, so I´ll soon have good info on his space. The idea is to make a mess of his space with surprise minefields and one or two year bomb runs. The goal is not to bomb his planets clean, but to hit his economy; if takes a planet longer to recover than it takes the fleet to prepare another attack, or simply force him to spend a lor of resources protecting his planets, the attacks will be a success.
The tech I have available at the moment allows me to build b-17 bombers with the most advanced conventional and lbu bombs. Should I load the bombers with 8 cherries, 8 LBUs, or 4 of each? I´m planning on having around 7 bombers in each "ghost" fleet. Note that the objetive is not to sterilize a planet in the smallest time possible, but to do the most damage to the econmy in one or two years of bombing. They are not exactly the same thing, thoug obviously wiping the planet clean would be great.
[Updated on: Wed, 03 May 2006 13:10] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Wed, 03 May 2006 13:58  |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| rowenstin wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 18:58 |
Note that the objetive is not to sterilize a planet in the smallest time possible, but to do the most damage to the econmy in one or two years of bombing. They are not exactly the same thing, thoug obviously wiping the planet clean would be great.
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So use LBUs. But if you don't wipe his planets clean, he'll still be able to produce something (docks assumed), so it is usualy wise to destroy planets completely.
I'd suggest using two bomber designs - a LBU one, and a Cherry one. The LBUs do the main job, and the cherry one clean after them.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Wed, 03 May 2006 21:11 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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I think I remember that 3 LBU to 1 Cherry ratio is best for killing a world in 2 turns. 1 to 1 and (in Poseys considering 100 tech 16 defenses) it looks like 80 LBUs and 80 Cherries will kill 10% pop and all installations on the first run, and most of the pop on the next (assuming 30 defenses built).
Hmm, 3 to 1 either way doesn't seem to work, assuming the victim builds defenses. 80 of each seems to be about optimal, it will depend on the victim's en tech, pop, available minerals, willingness to build defenses, pop resources, and probably a few other things...
Note that attacking an IS is harder, defenses are cheaper, and they tend to have more pop on the world, it's possible for an IS to build 100 defenses after having all installations bombed out.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Sun, 09 July 2006 20:36 |
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| PricklyPea |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005 | |
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| LEit wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 21:11 |
I think I remember that 3 LBU to 1 Cherry ratio is best for killing a world in 2 turns. 1 to 1 and (in Poseys considering 100 tech 16 defenses) it looks like 80 LBUs and 80 Cherries will kill 10% pop and all installations on the first run, and most of the pop on the next (assuming 30 defenses built).
Hmm, 3 to 1 either way doesn't seem to work, assuming the victim builds defenses. 80 of each seems to be about optimal, it will depend on the victim's en tech, pop, available minerals, willingness to build defenses, pop resources, and probably a few other things...
Note that attacking an IS is harder, defenses are cheaper, and they tend to have more pop on the world, it's possible for an IS to build 100 defenses after having all installations bombed out.
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Would smart bombs be any use in the mix? e.g. assuming all non-MT bombs avaiable and using b52 hull. Have 1 slot annihilator, rest cherries and lbus (not sure of split). The idea being that in year 1, the smarts kill more of the pop than the cherries.
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Mon, 10 July 2006 11:54 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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OK, using only Posey's spreadseet (not actual testing) I've worked out how to to kill a world in 2 years given that the defenders will build as many defenses as possible. This assumes the defenders are not IS, HE, WM, or AR. And assumes that tech is maxed (so best bombs are available and so are best defenses), and so is the world (max factories, mines, and defenses, - I'm assuming 3800 total on a full world). IS can build defenses cheaper, and when tech is maxed, have a good chance of being overpopulated before the bombing starts, both of which make killing IS harder. WM have low tech defenses, HE are underpopulated, so killing them is much easier, but not quite as easy as killing AR pop...
This also assumes the attackers are not SS (who can lift minerals to deny the ability to build defenses for the second year) and that the allies of the attackers do not help in the bombing.
Note that all of these numbers are very dependant on the assumptions above, most important being the total number of factories, mines, and defenses that the defenders have, which may not be something you know.
360 cherries and 120 LBU74s (30 B52s) will kill all installations, and kill 216600 population, leaving 883400, which can build 58 defenses, and in year 2, the bombs will kill all the population.
240 cherries, 120 LBUs, and 120 Annihilators will kill 287800 population the first year, but will not wipe out the world the second year, leaving 142000 pop after two years - even though they can only build 54 defenses.
Against HE you need 156 cherries and 52 LBU74s. (13 B52s)
Against WM you need 128 cherries and 128 LBU74s. (16 B52s)
Against IS starting with 2.2mil pop, you need 1164 cherries, and 388 LBUs (97 B52s), it's probably better going with all cherries and doing a one turn kill.
If you can be sure they cannot build defenses for year 2, then 144 LBUs and 48 Cherries (12 B52s) will kill it in two years (with quite a bit of overkill in year 2 although it doesn't clear all defenses in year 1).
If the attacker and an ally are working together, then the lower player # should bring only LBUs, and the higher player # should bring only cherries. 176 LBUs (11 B52s), and then 40 Cherries (2.5 B52s) to finish off the defenseless world.
To kill a world in one turn with just one player, you need 1936 cherries (121 B52s full), LBUs and smart bombs won't help any. 1616 HABs will do it (101 B52s full), and will leave over half the factories intact.
The only real use for smart bombs seems to be to follow up after obital adjusters. They may be useful if the defenders have low tech defenses (WM perhaps  )
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Mon, 10 July 2006 20:30 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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I considered the use of smart bombs by IS, as a bit of a warming up for the pop bomb. But the amount of damage done is small vs 100 tech 23 defenses, and as an IS you cannot build them yourself, so getting a decent supply is probably much more expensive then the fairly minor value.
It's not the min kill value that adds up, it's the 2.5%. Min kills only have an effect if the population on the world is very low.
Limiting yourself to 10 bombers or some other limit, will mean that it takes more then 2 years to kill a world, and analyzing that is much more complex.
I didn't calculate for leaving a bit of pop for pop drop, but unless you're going to do a massive pop drop (generally only a repeatable option for IS), you'll want to wipe all the defenses and most of the pop, so just do the normal analysis of a kill, and subtract one bomber.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Fri, 28 July 2006 01:18 |
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| JasonC |
 | Petty Officer 2nd Class
Stars! V.I.P |
Messages: 58
Registered: July 2006
Location: Arlington, MA | |
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Definitely mix them, in the specific situation described.
If you send B-17s clear to the other side of the galaxy, you better be able to wipe out worlds completely, when given enough time or you find a poorly prepared target.
You don't have gates. These guys are going to be out there a long time. (Normally I gate dedicated minis types - but you don't have gates etc.)
I might even consider a reduced number of bombs per bomber and more of them, to improve dp, fuel, etc.
Killing lots of factories is useful, but pop kills last a lot longer in economic effect.
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Thu, 17 August 2006 08:40 |
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Defenses aren't as effective at protecting installations as pop. So even with En23 you can slaughter the installations quickly using LBU. (Or enough cherries).
Smart bombs are effective if you have allies also holding bombers over same planet or can deterraform his planets to be red.
Mini-bomber is more resistant to late game missile suicide attack, and only slots for one type of missile. Mini-bomber is easy to gate, eg from 300/500 to 100/250 gates.
If you can kill his pop but leave installations, that is worth more than just late game resources... nice to quickly build good gate with 100 defenses deep in enemy terratory. LBU+Cherry lead to no factories left. Cherry alone and with skill you may save bunch of factories at times.
[Updated on: Thu, 17 August 2006 08:45] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: LBUs, cherries, or both? |
Sun, 15 October 2006 14:26 |
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| knightpraetor |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 154
Registered: October 2006 | |
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so it sounds like smart bombs are pretty useless. I guess the only use would be fi you could surprise attack some enemy colony (or backstab an ally) that has been factorying upw ithout getting defenses...don't know how useful it would be. I'll ask my SS ally to try it out on someone perhaps
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Generally quite useless bombs.
