Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » New Bug/Trick found???
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 11:38   |
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It has been seen and described before, I think conclusion was to treat it as a valid tactic. For answer to Mazda's question, that came after, works with any race not just SS.
I'll throw another one out, that I think is more likely to be called a bug but open to discussion. I would prefer someone not use it in a game then bunch of angry/hard feelings as people discuss fairness.
Build a ship of poor design, attack enemy with it, have it get destroyed (or scrap it). Since you have no ships left of that design you can change the design (edit design rather than delete and create new). Likely keep weight of ship design the same.
If you build a bunch of ships with the new design, and send them to enemy, he will see it as old poor design until he finds out hard way in battle.
Is this a cheat?
[Updated on: Wed, 22 March 2006 11:47] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 11:40 |
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 mazda |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK | |
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| Robert wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 16:04 |
In my case it does not matter much as I have both cheap, but could this be exploited somehow???
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Possibly, really depends on whether it gives you x resources, which you are then spending in a different field, or whether it gives you "a whole level", which you could transfer to an expensive field.
An analogy would be that you are returning a vase to a shop for a refund.
They either
a) give you a refund that allows you to spend the same amount on one or more cheaper vases
b) give you a refund that allows you to take any single vase in exchange (so you go for the biggest, most expensive vase you can find)
I'd say that the former is fair.
In getting a free level of Con (24) it gives you x resources (presumably the amount to go from Con 22 to 23, or maybe Con 23 to 24).
You use a few of those resources in Con and the rest go into En.
If we go with the latter then you could get more serious abuse whereby you scrap an almost complete, low, cheap level and end up gaining almost a full, expensive level in some other field.
I'm sure that something similar to this (scrapping the tech you are researching) has been discussed before, but perhaps not with this consequence in mind.
Maybe it is connected to you spending lots on research as well.
Is this your SS race ? That might even be pertinent.
M
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 11:46 |
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| m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| Robert wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 17:04 |
Hi all!
I found out something quite strange this turn in a game I am playing in... 
I had en20 last turn (20k missing to en21 and 50K missing to en22) and con 23 (just a few resources to con24.
I had con-scrappers and did set research to con and then en next.
I did get a level in con from scrapping - usually I should have ended up a few resources from con25, instead of that I ended up very close to en22 (I did have 50k to research and did put 20K into research actually, but did a jump of nearly 50K instead).
So it seems that the leftover resources from construction have moved to energy tech and in the end got 50K there by scrapping a nearly finished con level...
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If you scrapped at WP0, then the "finish CONS, then start EN" condition got triggered, so you didn't in fact research Const, and all 50K res went to Energy. 
No trick, just "quirk" of conditional research. 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme!  Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 11:50 |
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| Quote: |
If you scrapped at WP0, then the "finish CONS, then start EN" condition got triggered, so you didn't in fact research Const, and all 50K res went to Energy.
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Not the issue. Tech can be sitting there accumulated from many turns and get flipped to different field.
As I mentioned before it was brought up (perhaps by me, I was part of discussion) and conclusion seemed to be to treat it as valid tactic as not big deal if used and hard to police.
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 12:48 |
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| Kelzar |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 112
Registered: January 2006
Location: Ohio, US | |
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| multilis wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 11:38 |
Build a ship of poor design, attack enemy with it, have it get destroyed (or scrap it). Since you have no ships left of that design you can change the design (edit design rather than delete and create new). Likely keep weight of ship design the same.
If you build a bunch of ships with the new design, and send them to enemy, he will see it as old poor design until he finds out hard way in battle.
Is this a cheat?
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From a realistic military POV.. perfectly acceptable tactic, could easily be defined as a decoy. Hmmm what is this giant wooden horse (or bunny) doing outside my gate?
From a game mechanics POV such actions could be easily confused with someone monkeying around with game files. WTF, so-n-so's Wimpy Destroyer USED to have Alpha torps, how did his design suddenly get Jihads?
Personally I like the idea of this as a tactic, however it does make for more people being paranoid about altered game files.
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 13:19 |
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| PricklyPea |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005 | |
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| multilis wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 11:38 |
It has been seen and described before, I think conclusion was to treat it as a valid tactic. For answer to Mazda's question, that came after, works with any race not just SS.
I'll throw another one out, that I think is more likely to be called a bug but open to discussion. I would prefer someone not use it in a game then bunch of angry/hard feelings as people discuss fairness.
Build a ship of poor design, attack enemy with it, have it get destroyed (or scrap it). Since you have no ships left of that design you can change the design (edit design rather than delete and create new). Likely keep weight of ship design the same.
If you build a bunch of ships with the new design, and send them to enemy, he will see it as old poor design until he finds out hard way in battle.
Is this a cheat?
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Nope. It's a normal (but uncommon) tactic.
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Wed, 22 March 2006 13:50 |
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| wumpus |
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Messages: 114
Registered: September 2004 | |
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| PricklyPea wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 19:19 |
| multilis wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 11:38 |
It has been seen and described before, I think conclusion was to treat it as a valid tactic. For answer to Mazda's question, that came after, works with any race not just SS.
I'll throw another one out, that I think is more likely to be called a bug but open to discussion. I would prefer someone not use it in a game then bunch of angry/hard feelings as people discuss fairness.
Build a ship of poor design, attack enemy with it, have it get destroyed (or scrap it). Since you have no ships left of that design you can change the design (edit design rather than delete and create new). Likely keep weight of ship design the same.
If you build a bunch of ships with the new design, and send them to enemy, he will see it as old poor design until he finds out hard way in battle.
Is this a cheat?
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Nope. It's a normal (but uncommon) tactic.
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And - unless I'm very much mistaken - it happends "by accident" quite often; it's not necessary to do it the way you describe - a similar problem arises if you delete the design and construct a new design using the same hull in the same "design slot".
Note that a WM will see the design for what it is immediately.
Also, any race will see the new *fleet*'s mass correctly, and may thus be able to conclude that the design they are getting for it can't be right.
Michael "Wumpus" Zinn
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Thu, 23 March 2006 08:08 |
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| Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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| iztok wrote on Thu, 23 March 2006 10:27 |
Hi!
| PricklyPea wrote on Wed, 22 March 2006 19:19 |
Nope. It's a normal (but uncommon) tactic.
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It's my very common tactic, usually deployed when swapping those remaining few Jihad BBs for Jugg ones. I do expect others to use it as well, so I keep checking "known" designs, when they come out from production centers.
BR, Iztok
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I still think it is an abuse of a bug in the coding, because you are not ment to mistake a new design for an old one. I know this happens often by accident, but if I had the feeling someone did it to fool the enemy... I would not call it a cheat, but the one would be on my "kill me first" list 
2b v !2b -> ?Report message to a moderator
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Thu, 23 March 2006 09:28 |
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| Madman |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| multilis wrote on Thu, 23 March 2006 04:38 |
Build a ship of poor design, attack enemy with it, have it get destroyed (or scrap it). Since you have no ships left of that design you can change the design (edit design rather than delete and create new). Likely keep weight of ship design the same.
If you build a bunch of ships with the new design, and send them to enemy, he will see it as old poor design until he finds out hard way in battle.
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I'd never realized this - I've often done it because I'm too lazy to create a new design when I can modify an obsolete one.
If it's completely undectable (ships genuinely show up as the wrong design, including in their fleet design browser), then it's a bug, and deliberate use of it I'd consider a cheat, abeit a minor one.
If there's some reasonable way of countering it, then it's fair game.
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Fri, 24 March 2006 15:49 |
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Hi!
That's usual. It is just rare in real games becuase usually you do not scrap tech ships with tech that you research at the moment.
One more example to add to this thread:
When you have Generalized Research LRT, and meet MT, and MT gives tech in the field you are currently researching, Generalized Research works for research points given by MT. More, you get twice more points from MT than usual. So, if you reseaching high tech and need 50k to finish it, MT gives 100k, so you get that level, and 50k spread out to other techs 
(Figured this out when making another setup of my new 5th element game setup for testing...)
Another one:
If you early in the game colonize planet, find "strange artifact" that puts some points into, say construction, and you researched that construction level at the moment, but switching to another tech after research (either by lowest tech or just another tech selected), you get level, and remaining points from artifact go... guess where? Into another tech, not into construction. Looks like something like "SUPER artifact" with both construction and whatever next researched. Getting this really often.
WBR, Vlad
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Fri, 24 March 2006 16:05 |
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| Marduk |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH | |
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| Madman wrote on Thu, 23 March 2006 09:28 |
If it's completely undectable (ships genuinely show up as the wrong design, including in their fleet design browser), then it's a bug, and deliberate use of it I'd consider a cheat, abeit a minor one.
If there's some reasonable way of countering it, then it's fair game.
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I like the idea... misinformation is a very important part of war. As Kotk says, you can find out for sure if you want by sending a chaff for a look-see. Everyone can do this so it isn't unfair.
It seems like the sort of thing that would have to be specified in the game ad, like 'decoy designs allowed/banned' or some such. Probably a good idea to ban it in beginner games as it adds confusion they don't need.
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Fri, 24 March 2006 18:02 |
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| wumpus |
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Messages: 114
Registered: September 2004 | |
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| Marduk wrote on Fri, 24 March 2006 22:05 |
It seems like the sort of thing that would have to be specified in the game ad, like 'decoy designs allowed/banned' or some such. Probably a good idea to ban it in beginner games as it adds confusion they don't need.
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It's difficult to ban, since it can happend by accident quite readily; I'm staring at a new BB hiding under an old design in a game right now, and I'm pretty sure that the enemy in question isn't trying to fool me intentionally - and I'll be doing a design upgrade in the next few turns which will most likely have exactly the same effect.
For the "perpetrator", it's generally not apparent when it happends. Even knowing the mechanics of exactly when and why it occurs, it's not always easy, or even realistically possible, to avoid.
Say in the relatively late game, when I'm running around with all 16 designs lots filled, I write of an old combat design in favour of a new one. It's comparatively likely that I'll be replacing the written off design with a new one which serves the same general function (say: heavy skirmisher), thus will often want to go with the same hull... and there you are, you've already "triggered" the problem.
As I noted above, it's not necessary to *edit* the old design to cause the problem - a new design in the same "slot" with the same hull type will cause the problem too.
I'll give a more technical description of what's going on tomorrow (unless someone beats me to the punch ;P), but I need to check on some details first, and right now I need sleep 
Michael "Wumpus" Zinn
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Sat, 25 March 2006 13:32 |
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| Marduk |
| Ensign |
Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH | |
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| wumpus wrote on Fri, 24 March 2006 18:02 |
It's difficult to ban, since it can happend by accident quite readily;
For the "perpetrator", it's generally not apparent when it happends. Even knowing the mechanics of exactly when and why it occurs, it's not always easy, or even realistically possible, to avoid.
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I've found thinking is more efficient when I leave off thinking about consequences and catches... then I post here, and you guys do that part for me.
Hmm, as I said I like the idea. I'd rather see it accepted as a legitimate tactic. I probably wouldn't use it much deliberately, but it would be obvious what I'd done. I'd delete an existing design which still had ships in conflict with the enemy (but not too many left or it would cost too much to be worthwhile).
From the enemy's perspective it would look like some straglers managed to run away and hide, and that reinforcements were coming. I'd be a lot more likely to sucker someone that way. After all, if they aren't fooled you haven't gained anything.
One thing to check with this bug is if the design shows up as an unknown (and hence new) when you check the fleet out in the summary panel.
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Sat, 25 March 2006 13:35 |
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| wumpus |
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Messages: 114
Registered: September 2004 | |
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EDIT: this post is way too rambling Skip to the next one which contains the salient points, and come back for details if you *really* like
| Kotk wrote on Sat, 25 March 2006 00:27 |
AFAIK
slot number of design (it is not displayed in Stars! starbase and ship designer just display the designs in that order),
and icon of design (hull too since you cant have same icon for different hulls)
must be same then non-WM opponent will scan old design. No difference if design was deleted and made new or modified.
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OOh, icon as well... I never thought about that, but you're probably right.
In any case, here's the promised somewhat more detailed description of what's going on:
(The first part is fairly trivial, and most people presumably know, but I've put it in for the sake of completenes.... What's a little more interesting is after a blank line )
Each race has the well known 16 designs slots, numbered 1 to 16. (or 0-15 if you're feeling geeky ).
Stars primarily identified ships by what is only *almost* a unique identifier: Race id and design slot number. So in my M file, there's an item saying I see a stack of 53 ships, of type 'Race 4, Design ID 12', for example.
Unfortunately, as the game wears on, and designs get deleted, design id 12 for race 4 will, sooner or later, get recycled - Stars! does not increment the design id number every time and just ensure you have at most 16 designs.. it actually only has 16 design IDs per race to use.
So far so good.
Now, in my M file, there is the following information for fleets and ships I see:
- for each design that I see this year, there is a design record
- If I have reason to know the details of the design **THIS YEAR**, then I see the full design with all components etc. (EG: The design is my own ;P, I'm WM, I was involved in a battle with that paticular design THIS YEAR, or I'm an SD and the other design ran into one of my minefields THIS YEAR... That covers all the cases that come to mind, but I may be missing something).
- Otherwise, the M file just contains a record of an empty hull, with just minimal information (design mass and icon, and that's about it).
Now... note that I emphasised 'this year' above... the M file does NOT have "memory"... when stars! generates the new M file, it doesn't "remember" that you saw a paticular design sometime in the past, and give you the details of the design based on that. It goes purely on what you saw this year.
The phenomenon described in the post, and which is almost always a good thing, arises because stars! stores the designs I've seen in my H file. Which of course *does* have memory... that's the whole point of the thing.
The problem occurs because stars! will not necessarily remove the old, defunct record from the H file when it notionally should. There are some good reasons for this:
- the M file doesn't contain information when an enemy design is deleted... you'll just never see that design again. So stars! can't remove the design record from your H file as soon as it'S deleted, because it doesn't *know*.
- the M file actually contains all that I can absolutely know this turn. Any time the stuff in the H file is used, it's really only making a "best guess". Of course, sometimes, the game mechanics can tell you that that fleet you see this year "must be" the same fleet you saw last year 49 LY away, and it can't have met with other fleets, so the designs in the fleet must be the same as they were before. And if the other guy had 1000 chaff of a certain design at various planets last year, chances are that the 1000 chaff you see at a border world this year are the same design. But already, you don't actually have (notionally) a 100% guarantee of this - the other guy *could*, theoretically, have deleted the old chaff and made 1000 new ones on the planet you see them now (resources permitting etc etc...).
- if in doubt, stars! errs on the side of trusting the H files information... and this is mostly necessary for the H file to h
...
[Updated on: Sat, 25 March 2006 14:31]
Michael "Wumpus" Zinn
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Sat, 25 March 2006 14:29 |
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| wumpus |
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Messages: 114
Registered: September 2004 | |
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| wumpus wrote on Sat, 25 March 2006 19:35 |
... far too much ....
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Yikes, ok, that was ridiculously rambling and unreadable, but I'll leave it in case someone feels like torturing themselves with it.
The salient points in my opinion:
- The fact that you can identify designs this year which you didn't actually fight (or whatever) this year is based on stars! making a "best guess" on your behalf, it offers *no guarantees*.
- Stars! does it's best to avoid giving false information, but there are some very specific situations where - due to design considerations - it fails to do this right.
- It's (mostly) a case of "(arguably) broken by design" rather than "bug".
As to whether it's a tactic or a cheat... to me, the key point in my opinion that it's not a cheat, is that stars! (in my opinion rightly) is *only* giving you a best guess at the design - and without the H files, you don't even have that. This just needs to be taken into consideration all the time.
There could even be a case made for a player seeing *all* enemy ships of the same hull, icon ("chassis" ;P) and mass as the same, except when you're engaging them (or are WM).
[Updated on: Sat, 25 March 2006 14:37]
Michael "Wumpus" Zinn
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| Re: New Bug/Trick found??? |
Tue, 28 March 2006 12:36 |
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| Quote: |
then it's a bug, and deliberate use of it I'd consider a cheat, abeit a minor one.
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Since you're the host of my current game, I would like clarification. Is this to be considered ok or a cheat in our game?
[Updated on: Tue, 28 March 2006 12:37] Report message to a moderator
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